If CO2 is not driving climate as the real experts say, then it's a big scam.

OK, I don't get it. Yeah, I know go fig, the conservative doesn't get a new tax but...

The man wants the tax to be pretty high to do its' "job", yet he also supports giving all of the money back to the people. So, exactly how does this tax "save" us if it is all given back. And then, even better, he states that "some" people will MAKE money from these rebate checks.

UMMM....Isn't this really another form of wealth transfer? And, can you imagine the government machine that must be put in place to manage all this mess?

I just wish the AGWers could be honest and simply state that they want a change in societal operations.

A carbon tax is a waste of resources. Let create a new level of bureacracy to collect money from the public and then turn around and give it back.

Do away with the carbon tax and it's advocates lose a job. Kind of like Al Gore. Al Gore spent the last 15 years lighting fires and calling out fire only join the 'fire dept' that will put out the fires.

A carbon tax is just attempt to destroy carbon based energy. And, that is immoral since the poor will pay the most.

That's quite a sales pitch for a needless tax, but he isn't telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If companies are forced to pay for their "carbon footprint" with higher taxes they will simply pass on that cost to consumers. So everything imaginable will cost more. The rebate check will reward those who consume less carbon but they will have already paid much more than their rebate unless their lifestyle resembles that of a caveman. Your gas and electric will be taxed along with higher taxes on gasoline. Anything made of plastic will carry the tax. Even food and clothing will be taxed and the trucks used to haul it to your local mall. In fact, it would be easier to list the items not subject to the tax because they will be few in number.

And all of this because computer models tell us, without evidence, that CO2 is warming the planet irreparably. What a scam!

Friday and another laugh.
Give taxed money back to the people????
Thank God I don’t have dentures or I would have spit them out listening to this sappy idealistic nonsense. Please get that man back on his medication. The idea borders on completely delusional and sophomoric baloney (of course without the nitrates)
LOL Give taxed money back to the people???? Let’s all hold hands and sing 2 choruses of Kum-Ba-Ya and world peace will happen.
Talk about living in a Utopian world! It would be a cold day in Dr. Hansen’s temperature adjustments before that would happen!
Nobody but starred eyed youths who have not seen their tax dollars wasted for decades or delusional tenured college buffoons who have lost all touch with reality could possibly believe tax money would be returned to us.
This is sheer nonsense.
And I wish we would quit mixing AGW with pollution and getting us off foreign oil. It's about does CO2 causing global warming?

Lets see, tax carbon for a failing theory. Snowing in Dallas in March. Promise to give the money to the poor sheeple who don't know any better. Brilliant!

Cannot wait to see Mark try and spin this into a great thing. Tax rebates are just money we have already made. Now I will have 8000 in taxes withheld and receive 3000 in rebates of my money.

Sounds like a good deal, I tell you what, Mark and BT, you send me 100 bucks a month, I will give you a rebate of 80 bucks every month, no questions asked!

Let me get this stupidity right. were going to pay more taxes to buy carbon footprints so I can get a rebate later. May I buy 3 and a half pounds of it at a time because my toilet can only handle that much per flush.My local grocery store doesn't carry carbon footprints. What exactly do they look like? Are they in the frozen food section or what? Only the Al Gore wanna bees could come up with such stupidity as this.Gobal warming is a SCAM

California wants to make sure that they can properly indoctrinate all children. (No independent or free thinking minds allowed in this state.)

We defeated the Soviet Union, only to bring their worst ideas here. Because survival of the world depends on having properly brainwashed children.

Homeschoolers' setback sends shock waves through state

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL

It never fails to amaze me

That the very people that complain the government is broken

IRS, Medicare, FEMA, Social Security, etc

Are the same people that want to make the government bigger, give it more power, and create even more bureaucracy.

Like, if we make it bigger, somehow it will work.

There's a name for people like that.

Repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome.

.

We need this tax to protect the ski industry from the horrors and desolation of global warming. As of this morning -

Taos Ski Valley (New Mexico) is reporting 10 feet of snow. Sunrise Ski Area (Arizona) is reporting 8 feet of snow. Silverton, Colorado is reporting 17 feet of snow, as are many of the ski areas in Oregon. California ski areas are averaging about 14 feet of snow. Nevada ski areas are reporting 8-10 feet, as are the ones in Montana.

Besides the snow, it also has been very cold out west the last two winters. The climate models fell flat on their faces again, and it is genuinely sickening that government policy is based on junk science and hysteria.

Brett:
Okay, enough is enough! We are getting hammered with up to 14" of new snow here in Northeast Ohio and the temp is plunging into the teens Saturday night. My god man, this is March; Easter is about two weeks away. My jelly beans are frozen and the Easter Bunny is nowhere to be found.

Please DO SOMETHING!

As part of the unprecedented Arctic meltdown, Arctic sea ice is greater than this date in 1995.
http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh?fm=03&fd=06&fy=1995&sm=03&sd=06&sy=2008

Southern hemisphere sea ice is well ahead of last year's record maximum pace.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.south.jpg

Worldwide sea ice is above normal too. No doubt this story will be on the cover of Time and Newsweek, and will be mentioned in Hensen's next memo.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg

I rarely have the time or inclination to post but this guy has presented a position that would create an enormous government beaurocracy. We are entering into a recession in this country the likes of which we have not seen since perhaps the depression when all is said and done. Aside from the housing crisis, the cost of energy is a culprit. If he claims that we could expect large checks in the realm of $1,000 per person, can you imagine what the cost of the tax would be? The average American is already struggling.

Fast forward to the massive goverment deficits that will follow this recession, and say good-by to the rebates as government would have to keep the revenue to bail us out.

This recession is just beginning. We had better prioritize our goals now. Alternative energy is already less expensive. My pellet stoves already save me $1,000.00 per year in heating costs. Let the savings speak for themselves!

Hi Bret,

I just came across this and thought you might be interested in highlighting it at some point. It lays out the skeptic's case and then gives the AGW response. It would be interesting to see the critique some of the more knowledgeable participants at this site give to the AGW response. At least it's an improvemnent over the usal ad hominem responses to skeptics.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7074601.stm

You have got to be kidding me! Hey, tax me, and then give me a little back and then call that a benefit!

IT'S FREAKIN' SNOWING OUTSIDE!!!!!!

This has been one of the coldest winters on record and the arctic ice is building up at an unpredented rate!

SHUT UP AND QUIT TRYING TO USE CLIMATE CHANGE AS AN EXCUSE TO RAISE MY TAXES AND EMPOWER THE UN!

I don't agree with a carbon tax to change behaviour. If there are no alternatives to using oil, then what choice do we have? We would be penalized for driving to work and to get groceries.

Give us choices, and we will change.

I don't advocate giving the government any more money and expecting them to give it back as a rebate. I've seen too many times where temporary taxes have been made permanent, especially on the state and local level, where I live.

Hey Brett, what gives? Patrick H's post has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just curious.

Charles,

Here's my response(s) on the BBC article:

1)The UHI adjustments are flawed. The UHI has been demonstrably proven stronger than NASA's adjustments. NASA cannot even categorize correctly what constitutes an urban vs rural station. Over 35% of the audited USHCN stations do not even meet the USHCN minimum requirements.

2)Half of AGW trend since 1900 can be found in the TOB adjustments that NOAA, GISS, and HadCrut make. The TOBs adjust the 1930s downard and the post 1990 temps upward. Remove the TOB and you remove half of our warming.

3)The Franz Josef Glacier in New Zealand has signals of both the MWP and LIA. This can also be seen in the drought patterns in Arizona,cedar proxies from the Tidewater States of the US, as well as from ice cores in Peru. Only if you follow Michael Mann's MBH9X reconstructions can you say the MWP and LIA were only regional events.

4)The computer models cannot forecast the beginning or the ending of any major change in atmospheric teleconnections. A change in state in any of the major teleconnections has implications in regional climate that can be multi-decadal in scope.

5)The problem is that the AGW footprint for the tropics is aloft and not at the surface. The tropical tropesphere has shown no indications that AGW is occuring there. As a matter of fact, if anything the tropical tropesphere has slightly cooled in recent years.

6)Since the 1960s solar activity has been higher when compared to earlier centuries. However, there is a direct correlation between lack of sunspots and a cooling climate. During the LIA, 3 minimums occured (Sporer, Maunder and Dalton). There is a 200 year cycle known as the Gleissberg Cylce. During the last negative phase of the Gliessberg Cycle the 3 solar minima occured. The Gliessberg Cycle went positive in 1820. It is expected to go negative (according to the Russians) by 2030.

7)No arguement here.

8)In light of recent TS seasons, there is no indication that AGW acts to a)diminish storm activty but b)cause more intense storms.

9)Europe's warming coincides with a peak in the positive phase of the AMO. The interaction of the AMO and NAO determines the North Atlantic storm track. To say Europe's warming is due to the positive feedback of water vapour is ludicrous. Just two Winters ago record lows were set, and last summer was unseasonably cool in most of Northern Europe.

10)Kyoto and the IPCC are incestiously linked. The IPCC give political cover to nations that sign Kyoto. To this date, none of the signees have even come close to meeting Kyoto standards.

The EU has now decided that Hamas terrorism is due to "climate change." Yesterday's shooting was apparently the result of the snow they had in Jerusalem last month.

The risks of climate change have turned from a threat to reality impacting the .... hopes for stability in the Middle East

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080307195950.89zwm7fz&show_article=1

It's interesting that the US is catching up with the nonsense we have been having in the UK for some time. Moves such as these are being used by our UK Government to fund wealth redistribution and it looks like you guys in the US are going to suffer the same fate we are already.

A big concern I have with Caron Tax levies (if you set the science aside for a moment as politicians do anyway!), is that the UK model is meant to encourage change to alternative low carbon solutions. Our reality is that public transport, for example, in the UK is dirty, dangerous, expensive, unreliable and never takes me from where I want to leave to the destination I am trying to achieve.

Although I am unsure of the science and which argument is correct, I feel like many other people that I am being asked to swallow a stealth tax wrapped in a green sugar coating.

Patrick Henry,

I enjoy your posts but one minor correction to your March 7, 2008 1:32 PM post - Hensen created the Muppets, it is Hansen who creates similar make-believe regarding climate.

Charles,

Interesting link, but it should have been the other way around, with Singer rebutting Schmidt. It is intriguing that the Earth's wobble no longer affects climate like it did in the past! The rest of Schmidt's arguments are largely just as fatuous - note the melting of the Arctic (Eureka was up to a balmy -44C yesterday).

Regarding the topic at hand, British Columbia is going to be an experiment in this nonsensical exercise - I just hope that AGW is totally discredited before all Western economies are devastated. Oh yes, read Tom Clancy's "Rainbow Six" some time - he has a good understanding of 'ecowarriors'.

For a non-biased production, the emphasis sure seemed to be on the pro AGW side. Great idea, carbon tax! Just can't wait to pay taxes in Tennessee to keep myself warm when the snow starts falling in May! When the climate cools sufficiently will we get a rebate for producing more CO2?

As was said above, it's nothing but a scam to milk more money out of the people.

Patrick Henry,

...and will be mentioned in Hensen's next memo.

I thought he was dead or have the Muppets resurrected him? Actually, I think Hanson would do quite well on the Muppet Show.

Komanoff is probably another PHD out of touch with reality and being paid to advance his hypothesis on all things carbon related.
I remember a famous quote from another day as "how can someone so darn smart be so darn stupid?"
Amen to that

Hi Greg Jenkins,

Petrol in the UK costs about 2.5X what it does in the US, yet it appears that doesn't seem stop many people from driving - given that much of the UK is one continuous traffic jam.

As a child, I used to live on one side of the Oxford ring road, and run to the other side to make my school bus (often in the fog.) I returned to the same spot last autumn and realized that there was never a break in the traffic any more.

We used to walk three miles into the city center to shop, and now people sit in 30 minute traffic jams to avoid public transport and walking. No wonder so many Brits are obese these days!

Oh my Gawd! Charels Komanoff is over the top. What a scam! Carbon Tax! Rebates to buy sneakers or deposit into college funds...Who pays such carbon tax? Coal fired power generation companies? And he says carbon taxes create incentive to do what? Who will do what? Without outlining exactly what the money is actually used for, who collects it, who pays it...how can we make an intelligent assesment of such tax? Meanwhile the deep south getting hammered by up to 20 inches of snow from texas to tennessee and beyond...reccord snowpack in the rockies...reccord snowpack in vermont and new hampshire...as far as temps and illness goes...fallout from airbourn pollutants make us sick. AGW and pollution as a justification for more taxes is more propaganda to scare us into submission. As a civilization scale challenge carbon taxes do nothing to implement already existing clean technologies. Nikoli Tesla and many many subsequent scientists and inventors have devised hundreds of new technologies to produce (access) abundant , cheap, clean energy. The "incentive" for implementing these many remarkable technologies will require nothing short of a revolution to throw the cronies out and require corporations to make the appropriate changes for the good of our planet and humanity.
Remarkable winter storm affecting the south , must be global warming!

Food crisis will take hold before climate change, warns chief scientist

Pressures from population growth and affluence
Profoundly stupid' to cut down forests for biofuels

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/mar/07/scienceofclimatechange.food

News from the AGW alternate reality....

Mighty Lake Michigan could suffer from global warming by Phil Taylor Feb 28, 2008
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=79963

Meanwhile, back in the real world....

The melt from one of the snowiest winters in years around the Great Lakes is expected to boost water levels .... We didn't expect this dramatic turnaround .... "We've had copious snow and rain across the Great Lakes into Wisconsin, Iowa and Illinois, so I would think they'll be on the high side of the projections," said Bill Deedler, meteorologist with the National Weather Service office in White Lake Township. Those projections generally suggest levels in the upper Great Lakes this summer will be 6 to 12 inches higher than they were last summer.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080307/NEWS05/803070358

The Government has never given any money back as far as I know. But near my town, nobody considers conservation. You either have to be poor, or a college graduate, to realize that we are wasting our resources. People love to speed around at there own peril, and burn up gas in their over bloated suvs. I think that there will be a time when we look back at the good old day's for surely, things cannot remain the same. If ozone and particulates, is our next Marlboro, then the Government will step in. We must conserve, change our act, or die. As Americans I know we are spoiled. At least some of us are. I no longer take bags from the Grocery, or go on unnecessary trips, and take the train, when I can. My two kids are great with this, and it is a diversion from TV and video games. That have their own carbon counters in there head. They love to play this game. Until we know that CO2 and CO4 and fluorocarbons are not effecting Global Warming we can only conserve, even if it is too late, or if it is proven unnecessary. I hope.
KIPP

Katie,

Here is what we can do with that carbon rebate check.How about using the extra money to help pay for our new 3 dollar a gallon + gas that we have to buy now?? However, if we were to build my "Tunnels" we would not have to buy gas anymore as the KE in the gulfstream would power every car in the USA that would now be electically powered.They can also power every house too.No need for a new carbon tax with the "Tunnels".Any thoughts? How do you suppose we can get the "Tunnels" computer modeled?

I came to Accuweather to get away from the bias at the Weather Channel and the biased Heidi Cullen. This guy spouts nonsense in a taped interview for most of TWO segments and the New York International Conference on Climate Change barely gets a minute! Where's the balance?

Where does this guy think the money will come from? Thin air? As was mentioned, companies taxed will pass that on to the consumer as a cost of doing business. After the government takes its cut, only a pittance will be left.

How about a little balance in your reporting.

Hi Patrick,

You're right of course about the current cost of petrol in the UK and the fact that the majority of people use their car rather than public transport.

If these carbon tax levies are to have an effect on peoples behaviour then you have to have a viable alternative to the car for example. I live inbetween Edinburgh and Glasgow, it costs me �15 for a return ticket from the nearest station to Edinburgh (a journey of less than 25 miles!), having to stand as there is no space to sit inspite of me being charged for a seat. The same journey costs a fraction of that cost by car for fuel and parking. More importantly, I would have to take 3 buses to get to the nearest train station and god knows how many at the other end. I would imagine it would take me 3 hours to get to work by public transport every day and 3 hours to get back!!!! The same journey by car takes 25 mins.

There is NO public transport alternative for me or anyone else in most of the UK.

This tax and "tax-refund" (100%....after subtracting, of course, the cost of people to do all the paperwork,) strikes me as a bribe, for people who don't think very far ahead.

I used to live very much in the present, and could be quite the chump for an idea like this. I'd take the check now, unaware that I'd pay down the line, because the man selling the gas, the man selling the heat, the landlord renting the unit, the farmer driving the tractor, the trucker driving the produce to the grocery store, and the manager at the grocery store, are not going to just eat this tax. They will add the cost to their expences, and pass it along to me. But, when you are twenty-two and unmarried, who thinks so far ahead? "Just give me the check."

Rising oil prices are going to stress out our economy as it is. Extra stress will not help, especially with the world-wide inflation in food prices caused by turning corn into ethanol.

These dreamers are always worried about a so-called "tipping point." What about the "tipping-point" which begins a recession, and leads to unemployment? Then the young fellow who said, "Just give me the check" discovers he has no job.

A carbon tax is the lesser of three evils when compared to tap and trade or carbon credits.

Would the carbon tax replace the income tax or replace the gasoline tax or would it be an additional tax? Would this add another bureaucracy to our already bloated federal government?

The most important question: Would it do any good? If carbon emissions aren't driving climate change, how will a carbon tax help?

The whole idea of there's a crisis, so the government must do something is just wrong-headed. As oil and other carbon fuels become more expensive, the USA and the world will adjust without massive government intervention. The market will find new solutions.

The term "alternate energy" will become an anachronism in the future as today's alternate power sources become mainstream.