Brett & others ... head over to Climate Audit for an interesting blog called " Sea Ice Stretch Run # 2 ".
It is both informative & humorous, plus the participants are behaving well ( for a change ).
I'll try to post a link.
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3336#comment-286970

Be good,
Rick.

Blah, blah, blah, polar bears, blah, blah, blah, more AGW fear mongering.

I can do that too!

Anybody happen to notice the Russian attack on Georgia, while targeting it's oil pipeline?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043185/The-Pipeline-War-Russian-bear-goes-Wests-jugular.html

"The pipeline is 30% owned by BP and supplies 1% of the world�s oil needs, pumping up to a million barrels of crude per day. This clearly shows that Russia has targeted not just Georgian economic outlets but international economic outlets as well. The pipeline is the only oil and gas route that bypasses Russia�s stranglehold on energy exports from the region."

Q: Are there ANY alarmists here who favor MORE American offshore drilling?

While the heart wrenching plight of the ice seal and the polar bear make good television, it is only relevant to the GW debate IF someone somewhere at sometime ever establishes that GW is caused by burning Fossil fuels.
Since that has not been established, this issue is merely interesting.

Significant ice has existed during the summer in the arctic since just after the demise of the Dinosaurs. That is over 50 million years!

To turn our climate back to near that time, is going to impact a lot more creatures than just the polar bear and ice seal.

The reality is that the climate shift will affect the entire globe and almost no species of animal or plant will be immune from the change.

Andrew:
your siad: Significant ice has existed during the summer in the arctic since just after the demise of the Dinosaurs. That is over 50 million years!

How in Hell can you back that statement up?
Nobody else on planet earth has evidence of that, where did you get it.

And the reality is that global warming has stopped and cooling is beginning and we had all better invest in warm clothing.

Andrew,

You stated:
"Significant ice has existed during the summer in the arctic since just after the demise of the Dinosaurs. That is over 50 million years!"

Show us some proof of this, please!

Satellite recon studies have only been around since 1979. Amunsden the explorer sailed through the Northwest Passage in a small wooden sailboat in 1903. Before that, it's anyone's guess.

You stated:
"The reality is that the climate shift will affect the entire globe and almost no species of animal or plant will be immune from the change."

So, what's new and exiting about that revelation?
The Earth has had a 90% species failure rate since species began. There have been several catastrophic, near global extinctions due to every type of natural occurance you can think of.

Your fears are that the Earth will change from what you've seen in "your" very short lifespan. The earth does not care what any of us thinks and will continue to eliminate species and land masses as it chooses, as it has done since it's birth, naturally.

It never needed us in the past, to devastate continents, raise ocean levels, make massive deserts from lush jungles, construct or level mountain ranges, eliminate past civilizations and put most of the northern hemisphere under a mile of ice for 10,000 years, and sure won't need us to continue on it's "natural" journey to eventual oblivion, being consumed by the Sun.

If you think a little bit of added CO2 to the atmosphere is devastating, just take a look at the Earth's prior history of natural devastations and you should feel a little sheepish about worrying over nothing but a very minute change, in an extremely short timeframe of the planet's history.

Go find another hobby. This one is worrying you to death before the Earth will ever get a chance to kill you.

Firemen now GWing believers...

Wildfire risk to tinder-dry rural Britain
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/aug/10/endangeredhabitats.climatechange

The records only date back to 1972, that certainly isn't enough to conclude that the arctic is a record low level!!! And anyway, Antarctic sea ice is a record high right now, so I guess we're heading for an ice age!!!

It is so wonderful that we are blessed with prophets who can see into the future, and tell us what the weather will be like thousands of miles away and many years from now.

Even the Aztecs would have been impressed.

Sanity check for the "experts" -

North Pole could be ice free in 2008. You know when climate change is biting hard when instead of a vast expanse of snow the North Pole is a vast expanse of water. This year, for the first time, Arctic scientists are preparing for that possibility.

http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn13779-north-pole-could-be-ice-free-in-2008.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news5_head_dn13779

Have the global warming "experts" been correct about anything this year?

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/latest/noaa1.jpg

Wildfire risk to tinder-dry rural Britain

paulm,

ROFL - I'm just back from a 10 day trip to the UK, where we covered everywhere from the south coast of England to the north tip of Scotland. It was pouring rain and cold during almost the entire trip. We stayed with some friends in Wiltshire who hadn't been able to mow their grass in weeks due to the deluge. I'm sitting in the office today in soaking wet shoes full of English rain water.

Your article shows just how out of touch with reality The Guardian is. Few people in England takes them seriously - it is becoming a rag for liberal Americans.

Firemen now GWing believers...

Well, sign me up, I'm switching sides. I was just waiting for the firemen demographic to endorse AGW theory. I'll gladly follow now that they are on board.

Q: Are there ANY alarmists here who favor MORE American offshore drilling?

Are there any deniers here who see that when drug lords start killing each other over crack supplies, the solution is NOT to find ways to put more crack on the street?

Thomas Jefferson:
Q: Are there ANY alarmists here who favor MORE American offshore drilling?

Are there any deniers here who see that when drug lords start killing each other over crack supplies, the solution is NOT to find ways to put more crack on the street?

Reply: Crack is an addictive substance that does no good at all to the users. Oil has been extracted from the earth and put to good use by an intelligent species in the lifelong quest for betterment. No comparison at all and those who would try and make a comparison are anti-capitalist and should forego any contact or use of an oil-derived product. Good luck with that, and don't try and drag the rest of us down to your "utopia"...LOL.

*Are there any deniers here who see that when drug lords start killing each other over crack supplies, the solution is NOT to find ways to put more crack on the street?*

Well, dang, that sounds like a pretty good solution, that is killing each other off, maybe they could be eligible for the Darwin Award.

Anyway, what does that have to do with offshore drilling or climate change?

TJ: Are you really equating oil (the one natural resource exploitation that is most responsible for our standard of living) with crack? Really? So, can we assume then that you don't drive, don't take public transportation, don't use air conditioning/heating, plastic products, etc.,

Andrew, I couldn't let your comment pass by without asking a few questions.

Since the demise of the dinosaurs? Really? Whatcha got to back that up, there, Andrew?

Didn't the temperature records from the Vostok ice core show during the prior interglacial that global temperatures were 2 to 3 deg C warmer than today? With polar amplification, wouldn't you think that Arctic temperatures would have been considerably warmer then? Wouldn't you think, with the higher temperatures between the last two glacial epochs, that the Arctic ice extent would have been far less then than it is today?

About your claims of harm to species throughout the globe, let's confine it to the Arctic for simplicity. Weren't the present species of Arctic flora and fauna around during the past interglacial? I understand that the poster child of the AGW movement, Polar Bears, were. I believe as a species they're 200,000+ years old and probably feeding back then on the same species of seals they are today. If they survived a period with higher temperatures around 120,000 years ago, why would you believe they'll be harmed during this interglacial?

That's enough. Back to my original question, whatcha got to back up your claims about the times of the dinosaurs? That's the most outrageous claim I've seen on this blog to date, and I've seen some whoppers. But thanks for posting it, I needed the diversion.

"Are there any deniers here who see that when drug lords start killing each other over crack supplies, the solution is NOT to find ways to put more crack on the street?"

Hahahahaha....good analogy!

"Anybody happen to notice the Russian attack on Georgia, while targeting it's oil pipeline?"

Invasion of a sovereign country amidst condemnation from the rest of the world? Why, the good old US of A (God bless it!) would never partake in such naughty behavior. LOL!

If you don't like the Russians, then use less gas. Their one-dimensional economy would collapse without oil & natural gas. Right now, however, Moscow is the place to get rich -- more billionaires than any city on the planet and Putin may very well be the richest man in the world (even richer than Bill Gates and Warren Buffet).

Thomas Jefferson (is that you BT?),

Your comparing oil to crack has been used by someone you probably more often than not disagree with. President Bush. "Americans are addicted to oil" right?

Well... Americans are not addicted to oil. Will going to therapy for our oil "addiction" give us the courage to stop using it? No, it won't. Why not? Because it's "neccessary" for our way of life. Got that? Where would we be without oil hmmm???

Your comparison of oil to crack is nonsense, similiar to comparing CO2 and Plutonium 239. Here's why: Crack heads would be BETTER off without crack. We would NOT be here without oil. Oil is the lifeblood, crack is the cancer. Get it?

Also, I am not robbing to get an oil "fix". On the contrary! I am the one who is being robbed because its so damn expensive, when it shouldn't be.

When "We the people" get you alarmists out of the way, we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil and reduce the cost of fuel, all while phasing in alternative energy. Your alarmist days, along with your alarmist leadership, are numbered. Most Americans are onboard with more drilling.

Anyway, AGW alarmism. Like there is nothing more important facing humanity. What a joke. Wake up!

On another site I was reading about the eco-system on the continental shelf sea-bottom, in the arctic. It depends on nutrients that rain down from above, and a lot of these nutrients come from a tough sort of algae which somehow manages to thrive on the edge of the ice.

It was noted that, when the edge of the ice retreats north, the thriving eco-system of critters down below dies out. This was causing concern.

However further study revealed the entire eco-system somehow managed to pack up and move north. Furthermore, since the historical record showed that the edge of the ice had, in the past, varied by as much as hundreds of miles from year to year, it seemed the eco-system was able to pack up and move hundreds of miles on short notice.

Pretty good for little critters, if you ask me.

You have to be tough to live up there. In some ways I think these arctic eco-systems are a whole lot tougher than our human societies are.

Mark, our beliefs on oil are very similar, but you cannot honestly think that was a good analogy.

If you honestly think that was a good analogy, than you would also think the following would be a good analogy:

"When people are dying because of a highly contagious virus, would the solution be to have more vaccinations and antidote easily attainable?"

Thought so.

Mark,

Condemnation from the REST of the world? Is there not a coalition? Once again you display very little understanding of world affairs.

And the crack to oil comparison was irrational making it a BAD analogy.

Russia trying to bomb a sovereign pipeline, which helps fuel the world, is an act of economic aggression. This is *another* reason why we need to drill for more of Americas own resources.

Q: How is Moscow "the place" to get rich?

You being a self-proclaimed economist, I am looking forward to your insight on how one can "get rich" in Moscow.

Invasion of a sovereign country amidst condemnation from the rest of the world? Why, the good old US of A (God bless it!) would never partake in such naughty behavior. LOL!

REPLY: Ya know, ladies and gents, I really wish Mr. Mark here would have kept his mouth shut regarding this non-Glo-BULL Warming issue, but yet again, our old friend shows his true colors. Which leads one to respond:

Hey Mark (Mr. Non-Politics). Where are all of your "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" friends??? How come they are not out there protesting this at the top of their lungs? Oh, that's right, it's not BUSH'S WAR, I forgot. That's it. Because it's Putin (ex-KGB), there's no need to go running in the streets.

BTW, if that is you BT, how has the weather/climate been in New England so far?

After record setting snowfall, I was looking forward to a good summer. So far summer has been a bust in New England with below normal temperatures.

Sound the ALARM!!!!!

All this is what would happen if there was melting ice, most of it isn't about it acutally melting (which it isn't.) Besides we are currently in an ice age right now, because there is snow at our polar caps and 99.9% of the alleged greenhouse gases are water vapor.

NCAR reports that Antarctica is warming up.
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2008/antarcticwarming.jsp

Vostok, Antarctica forecast to be -122F tomorrow.
http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/89606.html

"After record setting snowfall, I was looking forward to a good summer. So far summer has been a bust in New England with below normal temperatures."

June temperature anomalies:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/tanal/30day/mean/20080630.30day.meanf.gif

Gee! New England is significantly above average for June. What about July?

July temp anomalies: