Of course, Greenland was even warmer when the Vikings colonized it and they thrived. They died out when it got colder.

So, absolutely a warmer greenland will be a huge net positive for greenland. It's a no brainer!

I learned something today. I didn't know it was possible to have benefits from global warming.

Not Greenland (yet), but "Alien invasion: Non-indigenous spiders thriving across Britain":

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/alien-invasion-nonindigenous-spiders-thriving-across-britain-961409.html

Poisonous, some of them.

They could use some warmth in Greenland. It has been incredibly cold there.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/station/04416/2008/10/14/MonthlyHistory.html?MR=1

http://wxmaps.org/pix/temp2.html

I'm struck by the seemingly benign comment that Ove made. That the sun seems "warmer" now than normal.

I'm guessing that according to AGW accepted mantra, the sun feeling warmer than normal is a result of CO2. Or maybe, just maybe, the sun was actually warmer over the last several years.

Well, I suppose over the next 1,000 years, Greenlanders will do what our ancestors did 10,000 years ago when the mile thick ice cap melted off of Canada and Norway.

They will slowly re-populate the land, re-locate small fishing villages to higher ground, begin dairy and beef farming, build highways, towns, cities and manufacturing plants, open new mines and oilfields and large shipping ports and enjoy a vibrant economy from the yet to be tapped, billions in resources.

They will watch new forests grow, ditch the dogsled for more comfortable transportation and trade in their fishing boats for semi-trailer trucks to haul goods into the interior. They'll be just like Norway and Canada, before you know it.

Their frozen prayers will be answered through global warming, same as our ancestors.

Greenland, or rather, Whiteland (heh)...will obviously reap potential huge payoffs from warming, in addition to the annoying consequences.

And, depending on whether or not it continues to warm, will dictate life on Greenland.

One thing's for certain though.

If people get ahead of themselves and begin going crazy populating the country without concern for potential shifts in climate, they're in for a horrible realization. If and when things go COLD...their 'new age' colony...will have to be abandoned as well.

Question is: will it get warmer forever? Or will it stop...and fall back to cold again soon?

Guess I won't have to worry.

Hi,

I have done study on the topic global warming and still lot of search I am doing. In India Calcutta will be under water due to the effect of global warming. And on earth 1.2 billion or more human beings may lose their life in next 50 years to Global Warming. One thing which is very painful to know that the cause of global warming is created by all of us. Now if we don't take any step to save the earth then our next generation is going to put finger on all of us. Today, I am appealing to all readers to save the earth and to reduce the CO2 level, Say no to crackers on this diwali 2008. This Deewali I have decided not to play with crackers to save our earth.

Will you support in saving our planet earth.....???

Vaibhav Pandey

"Alaska glaciers on the rebound" Anchorage Daily News see http://wattsupwiththat.com/

This (title below) was posted on this site 1-2 weeks ago?

"Widespread Glacier Retreat and Thinning in Alaska"

I dont get it.
Who is right?

Reply: A certain amount of glaciers are indeed on the rebound, but the vast majority are in retreat.

I was disappointed by the article, because it slips from fact to conjecture. We have debated the IPCC report at great length on this site, and feel I can safely say that the science isn't "settled," and also that there are indications politics have poisoned that report. Therefore I feel it is wrong to use IPCC data as "fact." It is "conjecture."

If you are going to stray into the landscape of conjecture, I feel it is far more fascinating to wonder what happened to the Vikings. Estimates state their peak population may have reached 5000, yet there are no signs of mass graves or cannibalism (so far,) and when the first ship returned to the Greenland settlement in the 1500's only a single frozen corpse was found. (Stunted, but dressed in the latest European fashions of the 1400's.)

I have always been fascinated by this subject, due to the fact there is lore in New England about "Red Vikings," who were natives who knew how to sail, and conducted coastal raids which sound a lot like Norse behavior. (The only official "recorded" history is French and sparse, but mentions a Micmac clan called the Tarenteen who could operate French sailboats with very little training.) (The Tarenteen obtained thunder-sticks from the French, went down to peace-talks with the chief of the Massachusetts, and shot the sucker dead.) (Shortly after that a horrible pandemic swept over New England, wiping out as much as 95% of the population, which is one reason historical records are so sparse.)

I have spent over 40 years researching the subject, trying to find actual facts amidst the lore and conjecture. One thing I can state as a fact is that there has been a recent effort to repress earlier studies, which indicate Greenland was much warmer when the Vikings were there. Hansen and Mann find such warmth an "inconvenient truth," and the MWP has been effectively erased from the IPCC report.

Last summer the retreat of a glacier on the east coast of Greenland revealed crushed shrubbery and the stumps of small trees, dating from the MWP. That coast is currently treeless and brushless, and the discovery suggested that Eric the Red didn't lie when he dubbed Greenland "green." This news has since been vigorously ignored.

My ears perked up when I read the following in Tom Henry's article: "Literature produced for visitors claims various cultures of Inuits have lived on Greenland for more than 4,500 years, although it also notes extensive periods in which the island had no inhabitants � usually when climatic conditions were so extremely cold there was little, if any, wildlife to hunt."

If there is any archaeological evidence that a single Inuit lived in Greenland before the Vikings, I'd very much like to see it. I'd also like to read if any of the Dorset culture lived there during the Roman Warm Period. What I've actually read suggests the Inuit spread across northern Canada and down into Greenland during the end of the MWP, wiping out the native cultures as they went. The natives in Canada were the Dorset, and in Greenland they were the Viking, (who may not have been wiped out, but instead may have emigrated.)

I suspect the Inuit may feel a bit guilty for being so politically incorrect as to wipe people out. However it is also politically incorrect to mention there were warm periods in the past. In order to ignore the Roman Warm Period and the MWP, you must ignore the archaeological evidence, so perhaps the Inuit are merely learning from the IPCC scientists who are flooding into their land.

I learned something today. I didn't know it was possible to have benefits from global warming.

REPLY: Not to sound condesending or anything, but if you'd stop watching CNN, ABC and CBS, you might just get the other side of the story, not just the propaganda that the above put out to make you feel guilty.

Anyway Brett, you knew it was only matter of time before I chimed in. Especially since you listed BEER as being one of the benefits of a nicely warmer world. I will be bookmarking that Greenland Beer site in my beer file at home. Thanks for a great post!

I'd rather sweat and swelter (and have MORE BEER), than shovel, shiver, slip, slide, scrape, salt and slop!!! Bar maid! Serve up the brew and bring on the GLO-BULL WARMING!!!!...:-DDDD......

So what's the final score?- looks like an overall positive- and the only real negative is a positive for whales- the environmentalist's cause celeb. - Hey my SUV is saving whales now?! You compact drivers should be ashamed of yourselves- how do you sleep at night? :)

I had to run off and do my chores without making my final point, which I hope will aggravate Brookline Tom to a degree where he stops lurking and rejoins our debates.

In the lore of Vikings is a work called the "Islendingabok" by Are Frothi, and the saga suggests that when Eric the Red settled the island of Brattahild, it wasn't a deserted site. Rather it contained the ruins of huts, and boats made of frames lined with skins, and stone tools. One can see why the Inuit might assume their ancestors were there, however all these items were also in use in Ireland, in the year 984. Eric may have come across an Irish colony.

The question then becomes, was this settlement a ruin before Eric the Red arrived, or did he make it a ruin? After all, the Viking were not known for being especially kind to the Irish.

Also, we have seen in our own time how history gets revised. (In my high school history book Settlers were the good guys and Indians the bad guys, but in my son's book the Settlers are the bad guys.) I have seen this in only 40 years, and Are Frothe wrote his history 100 years after the time of Eric the Red. Lastly, Are Frothe may have been Christian, while Eric the Red was definitely not Christian. Are Frothe may have wanted to tidy up the truth.

It is precisely because history gets revised that we must make a clear distinction between science and conjecture. I enjoy conjecture, because I enjoy wondering, however to know the facts we need to use the current warm spell in Greenland to find the unknown location of Eric the Red's settlement of Brattahild, and conduct a properly run archaeological dig.

What worries me about the IPCC report is that it is so political and involves so much conjecture. Furthermore, it is not conjecture conducted for the sheer delight of wondering. Rather it is done with the intent of obtaining and wielding political power.

The saddest lessons derived from the study of history is man's inhumanity to humanity. It doesn't matter if you study Indians and Settlers, or Eric the Red, or Hitler's handshake with Stalin over the fate of the Poles.

Far more inspiring are examples of the humanity of humanity, and this seems to involve people demanding the truth, standing by the truth, and fighting for the truth. And, yes, this involves even little truths like whether there was a MWP or not, and whether Greenland was dubbed Greenland because it once was green.

Positive Impacts! How could that be? Isn't every change in the climate bad?

Seriously, Bjorn Lomborg has frequently noted the positive benefits of global warming. (Despite claims to the contrary, Lomborg believes AGW is man-made and is due to greenhouse gas emissions.) Lomborg often argues global warming will have a net positive impact, but of course, the effects won't be evenly distributed.

Not Greenland (yet)....

Alaska glaciers grew this year, thanks to colder weather
By Craig Medred | Anchorage Daily News
Two hundred years of glacial shrinkage in Alaska, and then came the winter and summer of 2007-2008.

Unusually large amounts of winter snow were followed by unusually chill temperatures in June, July and August.

"In mid-June, I was surprised to see snow still at sea level in Prince William Sound," said U.S. Geological Survey glaciologist Bruce Molnia. "On the Juneau Icefield, there was still 20 feet of new snow on the surface of the Taku Glacier in late July. At Bering Glacier, a landslide I am studying, located at about 1,500 feet elevation, did not become snow free until early August.

"In general, the weather this summer was the worst I have seen in at least 20 years."

Never before in the history of a research project dating back to 1946 had the Juneau Icefield witnessed the kind of snow buildup that came this year. It was similar on a lot of other glaciers too.

"It's been a long time on most glaciers where they've actually had positive mass balance," Molnia said.

"Poisonous, some of them."

Ah, yes, yet another benefit of global warming, i.e., potential reduction of numbers of humans -> less CO2 emissions.

I know it says nothing about global warming, but, as a cryophile, my heart was still warmed when I checked out the temperature at the Greenland Summit camp yestertday. It was -55 F. Summit doesn't get quite as cold during winter (on average) as some places in Siberia, but I imagine that Summit is probably the coldest place in the NH, based on year-round temps.

--Summer fishing season is longer.
--Crops are being grown in areas that were never thought possible. It did not specify what types of crops.
--Increasing hydropower potential (glacier meltwater) is attracting many new projects, which could lead to more jobs

Great! When the earth cools in a few years all those crops and fish that they got used to will be gone, then what.

And those hydropower projects will be worthless. Moeny well spent!

In other news, A-Bsain and Loveland ski areas in CO are open. Get your rock boards out!

Off topic, but here is an interesting article on Alaskan glaciers that I saw.

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/story/555283.html

Vaibhav is referring to the use of fireworks on the major holiday of Diwali. In the U.S. we could do the same on July 4th. Climate aside, there would be a considerable benefit in avoided finger amputations and fires.

Whatever advantages they're seeing, they better not get used to. Global temperature from NCDC though Septemper suggests continued cooling for 2008, despite the end of El Nina. Average temperature this year likely to be less than 0.5 deg C above mean for the first time since 2000, even if we have an unusually warm winter. How much longer will the earth stubbornly refuse to continue warming before the greenhouse gas believers wake-up?

Article today also that Alaskan glaciers expanded this year due to heavier winter snowfall and cooler summer. Antarctic ice coverage has been running at or above mean levels for over a year. Arctic ice coverage is now 0.7 million sq miles greater than this time last year.

It should not be a surprise that arctic ice is begining to recover, as the cities that ring the artic are generally reporting much lower average mean temperatures this year than last. The changes from last year for the cities I moniter, through September 12th, are as follows:

Barrow, Alaska: -0.56 deg C
Repulse Bay, Nunavut, Canada, -0.31 deg C
Nuuk, Greenland: -0.92 deg C
Arkangel, Russia: -0.81 deg C
Pechora, Russia: -1.30 deg C
Anadyr, Russia: -3.38 deg C

It would take several years for the Arctic ice coverage to build back to the mean average, just as it took several years for it to reach the low of October 2007.

AL GORE AND MINIONS ARE EXPECTING AN OBAMA PRESIDENCY AND NOW FRANTICALLY LOBBYING THEIR WARES:
http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/10/14/climate-change-latest-victim-of-financial-crisis/

Back on subject:
Vaibhav: You are making the same conjectures that the Hysterics make daily, can you please substantiate your postulations with actual science?
I don't want to bust the bubble, but if you believe she's been around the billions of years as science claims, Mother Earth obviously can take care of herself for the most part. That's not to say we cannot all do our part to distance ourselves from the idiotic desecration of the environment by chemical, waste, and other dumping that we can see firsthand is causing a myriad of ills for those inhabitating this world, but to suggest that carbon dioxide is the bogeyman of long term earth health is simply not fully supported by science. That which IS supported is completely blown out of proportion by the fear-mongering Hysterics.

Truely sir, CO2 may be the least of our worries in the long run: Population explosion, food scarcity, AIDS, retro viral diseases, pollution of the oceans, fresh water streams, and watersheds is going to pop up and bite us in the ass because all the hype is on the fairy tale that we are creating global warming, thus the only saviours or the world are ourselves.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/53884.html
Alaska glaciers grew this year, thanks to colder weather
By Craig Medred | Anchorage Daily News

Two hundred years of glacial shrinkage in Alaska, and then came the winter and summer of 2007-2008.

Unusually large amounts of winter snow were followed by unusually chill temperatures in June, July and August.

"In mid-June, I was surprised to see snow still at sea level in Prince William Sound," said U.S. Geological Survey glaciologist Bruce Molnia. "On the Juneau Icefield, there was still 20 feet of new snow on the surface of the Taku Glacier in late July. At Bering Glacier, a landslide I am studying, located at about 1,500 feet elevation, did not become snow free until early August.

"In general, the weather this summer was the worst I have seen in at least 20 years."

Never before in the history of a research project dating back to 1946 had the Juneau Icefield witnessed the kind of snow buildup that came this year. It was similar on a lot of other glaciers too.

"It's been a long time on most glaciers where they've actually had positive mass balance," Molnia said......

http://www.eastoregonian.info/print.asp?SectionID=13&SubSectionID=48&ArticleID=83885&TM=29612.53
Weekend cold set new record lows
Pendleton breaks 118-year-old record

The East Oregonian

Monday, October 13, 2008

Cold temperatures set several new record lows this weekend, including a low of 22 Saturday in downtown Pendleton that broke a 118 year-old record of 24.....

Any comments?

Frost 'one more thing' for grape growers

By GLENDA ANDERSON
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Published: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 at 4:41 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 at 5:26 a.m.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20081014/NEWS/810140335/-1/frontpage?Title=Frost__one_more_thing__for_grape_growers

A record cold snap in Mendocino County over the weekend caused little damage to wine grapes but chilled the hearts of farmers who already have suffered huge losses this year.

"It's just one more thing on top of one more thing. You kind of hold your breath," said Potter Valley wine grape grower Bill Pauli.

Temperatures dropped to 31 degrees in the Ukiah Valley on Saturday night and early Sunday morning, the coldest Oct. 12 morning since record keeping began in Ukiah in 1893, said Troy Nicolini, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Eureka. The previous record was 34 degrees in 1916.

Of course this is just 'weather' and of course those infamous 'models' all 'predicted' this.....ROFLMAO!

rd: You say you did not realize it would be possible to have benefits from global warming.
That's not surprising. And, furthermore, you won't be hearing of any benefits from global warming from the mainstream media. That would not be politically correct or beneficial to the AGW agenda which has been bought into by the media and many politicians. If you would like to read a very interesting and logical view on the subject, I would suggest the book "Cool It" by Bjorn Lomborg. Another would be "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming and Environmentalism" by Christopher Horner. I think you will find these books very well done and fair to both views.

Vaibhav Pandey: Most on this blog are obviously not interested with the whole world, so why bother talking about a billion non Americans. Such a sad state for so many seemingly smart people. When our new administration swithches to sustainable tecnologies then things should get better, fo the human race. We are now in the age of the Anthropocene, and have a deeper moral duty then ever before.
KIPP

Steve Bloom:
Vaibhav is referring to the use of fireworks on the major holiday of Diwali. In the U.S. we could do the same on July 4th. Climate aside, there would be a considerable benefit in avoided finger amputations and fires.

Get real Steve. The awe that fireworks inspires in children and even some adults to celebrate the great country of the USA far outweighs the small number that get hurt. Would you prune all the trees to the ground and pave the sidewalks in foam to prevent skinned knees? The government has far too much power as it is, no need to give them any more ideas. We shall not speak of this again.

an oiznop called by any other name would still sound as good

2:04 AM Brett: Reply: A certain amount of glaciers are indeed on the rebound, but the vast majority are in retreat.

I still don't get it. I thought AGW all in retreat. It does not add up.

"Alaska glaciers on the rebound" Anchorage Daily News see http://wattsupwiththat.com/

This (title below) was posted on this site 1-2 weeks ago?

"Widespread Glacier Retreat and Thinning in Alaska"

I dont get it.
Who is right?

Reply: A certain amount of glaciers are indeed on the rebound, but the vast majority are in retreat.

Posted by Vincent Guerrini Jr | October 15, 2008

Brett,

My post makes me appear far saner than I truly feel, with my two political paragraphs removed. I understand why they were removed, and think it was wise editing. However those paragraphs were carefully designed to irk Brookline Tom, and perhaps drive him out of his retirement.

Reply: I doubt that it would drive him "out of retirement". BT might be still reading the blog, I am not sure, but I doubt we will be hearing from him anytime soon. I know there are some regulars on this board (from both sides) including myself miss his participation.

I miss the off-topic tangents we used to go on, at this site. I think they were valuable, for the topic of Global Warming involves a lot more than meteorology.

There can be little doubt that the politics involved at this site makes it very hard to clearly see the science. I think it is sometimes better to vent the political passion, and allow it to be clearly seen, than to have it lurking in the background as a quasi-subconscious influence.

Many seem partially blinded by their political passion. They have a blind spot, when it comes to seeing certain points, are deaf to certain data, and can't swallow certain information they need to digest. This is both understandable and forgivable, because it is due to big hearts and honest passion.

However there is also an intentional and cynical misrepresentation of data, done for purely political calculations, and I find this far less forgivable. While "big oil" is most often accused of this behavior, I also see it on the part of certain leftists who willingly accept, in their charters and constitutions, the concept of using propaganda to misinform the public. They feel it is quite acceptable to trick the public, and to use public passions in a rabble-rousing manner, to achieve ends they feel are desirable.

A former-Alarmist has publicly stated that, back in the 1980's, the word went out among Alarmists that "We have to get rid of the MWP." It was felt that the public wouldn't be properly panicked if they knew temperatures were once warmer, but could be herded like lemmings if they felt current warming was "unprecedented."

The idea people could distort the truth in this cynical manner strikes some as impossible; they dismiss the idea as some sort of crack-pot conspiracy theory. However as far as I can tell this distortion-of-truth is exactly what happened, and it continues to happen.

It is for this reason I fly off-topic so often to Vikings, the MWP, and the philosophy of certain branches of socialism.

While I feel you do a very good job moderating this web, I think it might be a positive thing to chose a topic, at some point before the election, which would draw Brookline Tom out of retirement, and allow us to all rave in the manner we used to rave, about the distortion of truth.

It might not be the most scientific of debates, but it would allow people to talk about what needs to be talked about.

And that is what a forum is for.

Reply: Caleb, thank you for your thoughts. Brett.

I know there are some regulars on this board (from both sides) including myself miss his participation.

REPLY: I sure do too, Brett. Especially when he shows his true colors. LOL!....

I'm going to make a final comment on the difference between conjecture and fact, and the erasure of the MWP period by Hansen and Mann, before letting the subject drop.

If you Google "Yarn, Dorset, Baffin," you come across a wonderful launch pad for conjecture. It involves the fact that, at a Dorset (pre-Eskimo) site on Baffin Island (The Big Canadian Island west of Greenland,) a ten-foot-long piece of yarn was found. It was assumed to be Viking, but radio carbon dating makes it appear to pre-date Vikings, and therefore it may be Irish.

The sites you'll scan through are full of conjecture, which are basically wonderful flights of fancy. There are Norse flights, Irish flights, Inuit (Eskimo) flights, and others, all springing from the same strand of yarn.

Opposed to conjecture is the actual work done by actual archaeologists. Such field work is no easy job. The arctic is no comfortable place. It is filled with clouds of mosquitoes, yet these fellows have to inch across the soil with their fannies sticking in the air, working with whisk brooms and tweezers and magnifying glasses, looking for tiny yet significant items like mouse and rat droppings, the skeletons of fleas and house flies, and even grains of pollen.

Though an archaeologist might indulge in a flight of fancy, if you buy him a beer, for the most part they refrain. In fact they stick to the facts to a degree that can be exasperating. They strive to avoid jumping to the logical conclusions I jump to, when a European-seeming strand of yarn is found at a pre-Viking site. (IE: "It's Irish!") At times it seems they refuse to conclude anything at all.

It is due to their self restraint, and also the fact they have actually gone to the arctic and seen things for themselves, that I respect the judgment of archaeologists, when they state the arctic was once more hospitable to humans.

This involves not only the MWP, and not only the Roman Climate Optimum, but an even earlier time when "Red Paint People" somehow managed to place the bills of swordfish in their graves. (Because swordfish sink, and can't drift ashore, this discovery excites me with the conjecture that these ancient people had ships that could go far out to sea, where swordfish are found; however archaeologists need to find an actual ancient ship, before making such a claim.)

All this work, extending back over a century, has a certain weight to it, sitting on one side of a scale. On the other side, sitting in the other pan, is the dismissal of all their hard work by Hansen and Mann. Based on carefully cherry-picked tree-rings and lake-bottom-deposits, (ignoring other samples,) (and in one case ignoring a sample from the same tree,) they devise a computer model which they claim negates the existence of warm periods in the past.

I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion the work of Hansen and Mann can't even budge the balance. The work of archaeologists carries far more weight, even if they aren't "climate scientists."

Enough said.