Not only that but:
Wind Power Exposed: The Renewable Energy Source is Expensive, Unreliable and Won�t Save Natural Gas.

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=1029

Excerpt:
Independent reports have consistently revealed an industry plagued by high construction and maintenance costs, highly volatile reliability and a voracious appetite for taxpayer subsidies. Such is the economic strain on taxpayer funds being poured into wind power by Europe's early pioneers -- Denmark, Germany and Spain � that all have recently been forced to scale back their investments.

This is it folks, the tidy is turning. 2008!

Consumers rank climate concerns ahead of economy
� Consumers around the world want governments to stop haggling and start acting on climate change, survey finds
� Nearly half of all 12,000 respondents in 12 countries chose climate change ahead of the economy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/26/climate-change-carbon-emissions

Brett: I enjoy the graphic. The blades on the wind turbines are shown as moving.

A second observation about the graphic: Did you notice the "Radiation Warning Symbol" created by the turning blades of the front turbine? Reply: No, I didn't notice Bob.

Now a video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty-vH42H_7k

I want one of those in MY back yard.

I reckon this wind farm thing is totaly unbelievable.As it stands, the lower altitude winds of any storm have far more obstacles than any imaginary wind farm could ever produce,never mind associated higher altitude winds.The whole thing sounds to me like some crazy ,what if, computer generated senario.

I did my own study on April 1st this year & determined that all these millions of propellers stuck up off the surface of the earth will in fact put the brakes on the earth's spin & once the earth stops spinning one side will be dark all the time.
My study was peer reviewed by the climate scientists who used the Russian September temperature data two months in a row.

Brett: Wouldn't you like to have a couple of these on your lawn. During the Holidays you could go up there, only 300 feet, and put up energy saver Christmas lights. Another Idea to capture energy is for everyone to where a solar back pack to generate your Ipod and cell phone. You might even get enough energy for your taser.
Happy Thanksgiving,KIPP

Sanity begins it slow but welcome return down under.
http://australianclimatemadness.blogspot.com/2008/11/bravo-new-zealand.html

Excerpt:
The greenie hordes are up in arms because the new centre-right government of John Key in New Zealand has dared to open up a debate on "global warming":

Local Wind Farm Could Steer Steers. AP News Reports! Group Shocked from their Commune.
Two girls from The Hippydome Commune near Creator, Nevada were shocked yesterday by an apparent angus steer flying through the air, near twenty large wind turbines. Nevada State Police reported huge beef patties on the Highway, only to find out that the patties were not beef after closer inspection.
The girls both fifteen, who's names were not released, said they also saw two chickens, and a life size plastic figure of Elvis stuck to one of the blades.
They were tested for drugs and Police found a maryuana pipe on them, and confiscated a CD they recovered of the Osmond Family Christmas. The girls were released on their own reconosense, with a warning, to find better music! KIPP

Paulm says,

"This is it folks, the tidy is turning. Consumers rank climate concerns ahead of economy"

Ahead of economy? Are they on crack? Apparently there are more and more dim-wits on this planet than I thought. But then again...

"PARIS - There is both growing public reluctance to make personal sacrifices and a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the major international efforts now underway to battle climate change, according to findings of a poll of 12,000 citizens in 11 countries."

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=f0a1687c-decd-4c72-9d0e-7e6dd92d4ebe

So the tide is turning ehh?

Paul, may I ask? You know how everything is green this, green that and that by being green we will help the planet.

Wouldn't the green in greenhouse gas suggest that we ARE being green?

And the lunacy continues.

Paulm

I didnt see the question or the answers in your poll link. If you know where I can read them, please post the link....Only when I can see both so I can see the exact wording will I be able to trust this latest poll.

In my ongoing research to find the truth about AGW, I have found most polls show people want to do something about C02 but only if it doesnt cost them any money or very very little.

I have to agree with Tony.
And other arguments about migrating birds though has merit, automobiles kill 60 million bird per year in the USA. Gary made some comments about reliability. Nothing is ever made perfect the first time. Over time reliability and performance with increase with experience. "Build it and they will come."
My question: Has building millions of houses across the U.S. altered storm patterns? Then lets get rid of the people. All other problems solved.

Goldfinger try google. I only got the news article.

Anyone bought this SCiam special ed...
http://www.sciam.com/special/toc.cfm?issueid=57&sc=singletopic

I agree with you there goldfinger. It is a little more complex though. I like everyone want to do something but it is extremely difficult because of the way we are entrenched in fossil fuel energy.

Any individual attempt will more than like not have the required impact. Apart that is from voting in a government that can change the infrastructure. For that is what is required.
Luckily that is what has happened in the US.

Some one may find it hard to give up a 7-seater because it is needed to run kids around to sport etc.

But if there is better organization by the schools & clubs eg (electric) mini bus and better scheduling of games that solves that problem.

Heres an interesting book...
http://books.google.com/books?id=5PEFBfoK9JIC&printsec=frontcover#PPA35,M1

We need to look at the direct effects as well as the global implications, because the sum of the local will become the global.

If you put in a wind farm and create a local lowering of the air movement, then there will be an increase in the absorption of solar heat. This will cause a local hot spot much like a UHI.

Do this from Montana to Texas and you will end up with a desert where the breadbasket was.

Greg:
You make good points:
But I want to be clear that the issue of reliability is about the equipment.
It is rather about the inherent lack of reliability of the wind and the sun.
Power generation from these sources seldom achieve anything close to their rated capacity and usual only produce 20%.
There is a chance that new technologies will emerge that will set aside this inconvenient truth but for the foreseeable future, wind and solar are simply rose colored ideals of utopia.

I just wonder what the effect on local storms would be too. That is a lot of energy to take out of a system and it would have unintended consequences.

Guess wind power is not as green as one would be led to believe after all.

Nothing is free and everything has a price!

Caleb:Your last post suggests that Ice core data is somehow invalid. What you haven't learned is that ice core data from Greenland, the Arctic, and the Antarctic, and from sediment in the oceans, all give the same result. Scientist find the most unchanging glaciers two miles down, to get the most pristine results. These brave scientists aren't there to fool themselves. They have no conspiracy against the humaan race. KIPP

Hi Kip,

I did not mean to suggest that the scientists were fudging the ice core data. What I was wondering was if the ice tested in ice cores was as stable as many scientists assume.

Notice how you use the word "pristine." That word is always used, regarding ice cores. However perhaps the CO2 migrates out, under great pressure, through time. Perhaps it is nature, and not any scientist, who is fudging the figures.

Before you insist CO2 cannot migrate through solid ice, because CO2 does not dissolve in solid ice, remember that a fraction of solid H2O can remain liquid even down to seventy below, especially under pressure.

Also remember what migrates through solid rock, to form pools far from where nature laid it down.
What migrates through rock? Oil. And also natural gas.

If at levels above 265 ppm, CO2 migrated out of solid ice, then ice cores would show that CO2 was always at levels around 265 ppm in the past, even if CO2 was at higher levels in actual fact. Honest and decent scientists could sample ice over and over, and would always come up with the number 265. No fudging involved.

All I was doing was wondering about this.

Also Kipp, you should likely reply to comments I make in the thread where I make them. Otherwise people will be wondering what on earth we are yapping about.

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving, and have a great and happy Christmas.

Hi again Kipp,

Check out the thread before this one, (about oceans growing acidic,) for a good link Steve Bloom gave me discussing possible flaws in leaf stomata CO2 figures. It was in reply to this link,

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/41/15815.full

which is a paper pointing out variations between ice-core proxies and leaf-stomata proxies.

Interesting stuff.

Being a simple mechanical engineer, I wonder is slowing down the natural winds would decrease the amount of heat the earth sheds. We all know heat is transfered beter in turbulent flow. I would be hard to imagine that decreasing wind speeds at the surface level would not affect upper wind currents. Just a thought.

Caleb | December 1, 2008 4:53 AM --- The CO2 does not leak out of solid ice. The NOAA Paleoclimatology web site will direct you to papers aout sampling ice coress and the problems thereof.