This is getting absurd.

Now the zealots are after my steak and BBQ.

One idea for geoengineering:

Let's get rid of the unnecessary life on earth. Start with food animals, then pets. Make sure to convert to Soylent "Green". Finally, reduce human population in developed countries to kill two birds with one stone. The climate should be great for those who are left. If the world government then decides to combat global cooling, I'm sure they wiil have plenty of hot air to do the job.

You put up a graph for CFC (Chlorinated FluoroCarbons) but I think you should be looking at HCFC's which are the replacement refrigerents for the CFC's.

All you need to know was just this moment presented by Lord Mockton on the Glenn Beck show. I listen to your points. You should listen to his.

That should have read Lord Monckton.

Does this fall under the category of "The Science Is Settled" ?

It is strange how many supposedly settled questions (such as global warming causing more hurricanes) are getting different answers than the original consensus.

http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/laughing-gas-knocks-out-co2 is an interesting article that focuses on nitrous oxide.

Really now,this is not a suprise to the increasing skeptic view.Just another in a series of debunked predictions form the IPCC projections.

Here's another one,
Great Depression ! Global tropical cyclone energy remains near 30-year lows ! Global and Northern Hemisphere Tropical Cyclone Activity remains near 30-year historical lows -- three years in a row now of considerably below-average activity globally.

http://www.coaps.fsu.edu/~maue/tropical/

> "This is not an either-or choice,
> we must do both to have any chance at all."

With all due respect, I have a better idea - ignore the problem until it goes away, because it is fundamentally false.

Yes, we should pursue all reasonable ways to clean up our tailpipes and smokestacks. That's sound stewardship. But the alarmism being shoved down our throats, and which is being used to terrify our children in tax-funded schools, is nothing more than the tool of careerists, nature worshippers and totalitarian statists.

Ever hear of solar activity and natural cycles? Even the BBC is beginning to get it - it must be late in the day. It's past time for more scientists and observers to gather up some courage and a bit of integrity and to challenge the received wisdom.

After all, if Al Gore says something, there's a pretty good chance it's not true.

Here's a fantastic example of hype:

Gore Gone Wild: Predicts 220 Foot Sea Level Rise in 10 years
“The North Pole ice cap is 40 percent gone already and could be completely and totally gone in the winter months in the next 5 to 10 years.”

Such thaw, cautioned Gore, “could increase sea levels by 67 metres” and that “each one metre of sea level rise (SLR) is associated with 100 million climate refugees in the world.” That’s up a full 47 meters from the already horrifying predictions he’s made previously.

Incidentally, a climate refugee (or “environmentally induced migrant” as the UN would prefer we refer to them) is a person forced to move to a new country by global warming related environmental disasters. Where the whacky climate refugees per meter SLR figure came from is anybody’s guess.

Anyway, if my math is correct, the 2007 Nobel laureate effectively predicted that by 2020, the oceans could rise 220 feet and 6,700,000,000 people will be forced to wander the planet in search of a less soggy domicile.

And the journey won’t be easy, what with much of the planet underwater and its entire population -- which Gore’s 6.7 billion amounts to -- vying for whatever dry land remains available.

So the incessant, insidious bloviating of the Gorebotic greenhouse gasbags might help impede drastic and disastrous action where no action at all is what’s desperately needed? Both in Washington and in Copenhagen?

Speak out, Al Gore. And Barbara Boxer. And John Kerry. And Henry Waxman. And Ban Ki-moon. The lot of you!

Speak out loudly. And speak out often.

One thing we can agree on – the future of the world as we know it may just depend on it.

Source:http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/10/gore_gone_wild_predicts_220_fo.html

Wait -- isn't this GISS oufit run by that Hansen?

Just another fishing expedition because more and more people every day aren't buying into the co2 bugaboo.

RE: Paul Johnson | October 30, 2009 5:51 PM

All you need to know was just this moment presented by Lord Mockton on the Glenn Beck show. I listen to your points. You should listen to his.

I did. My opinion: yet another person who makes Rush Limbaugh sound downright rational.

Read the [darn] draft yourself. [Maybe I should give Beck a pass since he admits he didn't bother to do so himself before devoting an entire hour program to it]. It's full of so many parenthetical phrases and options that I doubt there will even be anything near a final draft by the time the climate summit comes around in December. The 2% of GDP Monckton made a big deal about was the highest of three numbers proposed in one of three alternatives in one of nine options being considered for that particular paragraph. The "world government" paragraph is talking about the establishment of yet another UN committee group to oversee the implementation of the treaty, not an all-powerful overlord bent on destroying American capitalism.

The odds of the worst-case scenario Monckton envisions EVER making it into the final draft, much less being signed by a majority of developed nations, are virtually nil. In all likelihood, the final draft will be a much-watered down version with little binding authority so it will be palatable to not only the U.S., but also to India and China, who certainly wouldn't sign if we didn't. Of course I can't blame Lord Monckton for not considering that alternative; it wouldn't garner much attention on the public speaking circuit. But when the non-worst-case-scenario does come to pass, Monckton will no doubt congratulate himself for personally convincing enough Americans that this is a bad idea (his words, not mine); I doubt he'll consider that his scenario was far to ridiculous to ever see the light of day anyway.

The reason I don't make a habit of watching Glenn Beck is because I just can't handle that level of paranoia on a daily basis, nor the self-importance that drives him to impress upon his viewers most sincerely how essential it is to record his show on DVR every day less they miss an instant. If he's really that scared about the downfall of America, then he must have an extraordinarily low opinion of Americans.

Just in case anyone is still entertaining doubt that AGW is a socialist take over attempt, have a look at this.

The actual Copenhagen draft treaty spells it out clearly and unoquivically.
This is about Wealth transfer from the rich (the US) to the poor.

There will be no doubt left after you read it.

And your president will gleefully sign it with eyes wide open and willfully sell you out.

At least Mark will be happy.

Forgot the link......

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/03/the-copenhagen-treaty-draft-wealth-transfer-defined-now-with-dignity-penalty/

"Since mid-September the tropics have been sheared to smithereens (a lot of westerly winds). Two tropical storms (Grace and Henri) formed since then, but neither turned into a hurricane. For that matter, there were only two hurricanes the entire season: Fred (Sept. 7-12) and Bill (Aug. 15-24).

There were a total of eight named storms during the season, most of which were pretty weak."

The AlGoreithym for predicting tropical systems was also sheared to smithereens.

The post sets the tone that there is first a global warming problem and then stresses that either or scenarios must be enacted to kept to the earth from heating up more than 3.6F above preindustrial level....wow, How do we know which preindustrial era to pick? MWP was warmer than today? I don't buy it that the atmosphere is about to have a tipping point catastrophe. It is a living self regulating system. There are lots a bad things done to our atmosphere, deliberately on purpose, yet the atmosphere recovers, fights back even.

Deniers: When I was fifteen my father gave me an old spectrometer, which separated all of the visible color from electromagnetic wavelengths from the Sun. Now they have many devices like this on satellites and on Earth stations that measure exactly the amount of CO2, CH4, and the other fluorocarbons being used, that go to the troposphere. This is how they know the amount of greenhouse gases are in the troposphere. Rapid Climate Change causes the fall and spring to be not so well defined as they used to be. Rapid climate Change, has caused massive fires in Australia, and some of the water for the irrigation of rice in low lying areas in China and Cambodia are drying , which is a major source of food for the whole world. So get bummed out about electric cars, and your trite inconveniences. Wait until you can;t feed you own kids, and then argue about Socialism, cap and trade, and fondle your leader, Glenn Beck, that crying, laughing, emotionally untied wimp, and Rush, that ex vicodin mouth, with that addicts typical physical responses like bouncing around and going deaf. I don,t care if your myopic view of the world starts at our border, but the first visitors will be air borne viruses from Mexico
and the ever shrinking frost line that makes California fires SUPER! So what do you do, nothing. Read Rapid climate change at thec American Institute of Physics site. What capitalists; that buy their solar panels from China, and our windmills from Europe. Our right wing, are stallers and talkers. Why not join the Human Race. KIPP

I'm back from my 5 week excursion, that turned into 10 weeks, into the Arctic at the 70th parallel, Tuktoyuktuk, Paulatuk and Inuvik.

The bays and rivers are frozen over and the Inuit have been ice fishing for 2 weeks now. Paulatuk had a few days of very cold, 70 to 90 km per hour winds which generated 4 ft. snowdrifts. Snow moved in the last week of September and has stayed that way. Quite a learning experience.

The hunters were not aware of any warming or the lack of polar and grizzly bears, which they shoot regularly. There are not as many caribou as there were, years ago, but then, as one village Elder stated, they did not have snow mobiles, quad-runners, GPS and nine power rifle scopes when he was young, as everyone has now.

I recommend a trip up there, as it puts the arguments into perspective.

John D. | October 31, 2009 9:38 PM

Welcome back. I know what 10 weeks in such places as Tuktoyuktuk, Paulatuk and Inuvik, can mean. You must be happy to be around friends and family again. Thanks for sharing some of your observations and I hope we hear more.

Travis | October 31, 2009 1:21 PM

I have to agree with you. Glen Beck did not prepare himself sufficiently to host the discussion on climate. Whenever Monckton tried to put forward some science, it was derailed by Beck's inane comments. Too bad there was NOT any talent from the AGW convinced... willing to debate him. GK

"Wait until you can;t feed you own kids, and then argue about Socialism, cap and trade"

With cap and trade we will not be able to afford to heat our homes, let alone have money for food. So maybe we will starve before we freeze to death?

Either way the desired result, right? Hence no problem in the eyes of the true believers lead blindly by the Goreacle.

The Reality deniers love to claim that anyone not on message is funded by (fill in evil industry).

Then they claim that Honest Scientists (read On Message) are completely unoffected by funding perks of any type.

Hmmmm.

Want to read about the truth and laugh a bit?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_a_climate_of_fast_money/

Excerpt:
But some academics were as artless as they were brazen. Take the ones from Wollongong who plan to ask Australians what they know about their food, and then claimed “this research may also enable citizens to deal with the changes caused by climate change”.

You laugh, but it worked. They got $160,000.

Or how about the Macquarie researchers who won almost $300,000

to study how early humans learned to co-operate, after they cooed that this might help us to now “deal with problems such as global warming”.

Somewhat disappointing to me is that nearly all the comments are mostly emotional. What we need is accurate data. Interesting to note the curves for CO2 and NOx are almost identical in shape. It lends me to believe that much of the extra CO2 is from piston engines because they also generate proportionately more NOx than a coal power plant.
This would also explain a recession induced, slight decline as less driving and more purchases of fuel efficient vehicles.

Human nature is to support data that supports employment. So data is biased depending on who is pitching and who is catching.

JohnD:I don,t know how you could determine Global Warming from your short trip but it does sound great.Just to get out in such beautiful country,and live in that environment is a break we could all envy. Did you have a Sarah Pal in moose burger. They say moose is a protein rich food, but a little ruff.Tell us more about your long trip. When I go up to the White Mountains in New Hampshire than come home I get Immediately depressed. Welcome back to the unreal world of so called civilization. Do you live near that area. If so your a lucky dude. P.S.I really believe after studying a little science and the fact that the big bang started with our universe which was originally smaller than a cell, that there must be a God. Everything seems to have been situated for us to evolve. No coincidence. There has got to be new science, which will dissipate greenhouse gases. Well if we both have a soul, that makes us brothers. Isn,t that a scary thought. The more I blog the more I realize that Sceptics and deniers have mutual interests at least, and we do think, instead of just shopping at Walmart and eating junk food. Welcome Back. KIPP

John D.-

What a surprise! Winter is already coming, you forgot to ask about the melting permafrost, houses falling into the sea, it is cold above the 70th parallel! If you only look for what you think is there, then that is all you will find.

Just the mention of Glenn Becks' name certainly brings out the anger in some. He only presents the facts on issues backed not by himself but by scientists and experts in the various subjects he addresses. Former ambassador to the UN John Bolton was on the show with Lord Monckton and he didn't agree with everything he said but generally concurred that there was no need for any Copenhagen treaty at all. This is nothing but a transfer of wealth attempt which our president supports. He wishes to take from the US and give it to others who haven't earned it. Why not? He hasn't earned anything either. This warming nonsense will go down in history as one of the most devious hoaxs ever put over on mankind.

"This is not an either-or choice, we must do both to have any chance at all."

OK, Halloween is over now so they can quit trying to scare us.

Isn't it amazing what happens to 'consensus' when nature does not cooperate? From where I am standing it looks to me as if the AGW crowd is starting to panic as all of the ridiculous statements that were made are being exposed and the public loses trust in the integrity of people who are making a good living from promoting the fear.

First we were supposed to be convinced that the ice core data showed that CO2 drove temperature changes only to find that it was temperature changes that came first and that CO2 followed.

Next we were supposed to be convinced that the historians and archaeologists got it all wrong; that the treemometers proved that the Little Ice Age and Medieval Warming Period were not global phenomenon. But when the data and methodology were examined it was found that the conclusions were created by people who did not understand statistics very well and used proxies that were inappropriate for the purpose. At best we had an example of incompetence but the consensus was that it is likely that most of the warming over the past 50 years came from adjustments and data selection.

Remember how all of the ice would melt? Well, it recovered and at the beginning of this year global ice cover stood above the 1970-2000 mean.

How about those endangered polar bears? Well, their populations are growing or stable in most locations around the globe and the total population is more than double what it was 30 years ago.

What about those scary hurricanes? We were told by the IPCC lead author that the increased hurricane activity could be traced to human emissions of CO2 only to see activity decline substantially over the next four years.

How about more heat waves killing people as record high temperatures were recorded across the globe? Well, many regions are seeing extreme temperature records fall but it is not new highs but new lows that are more frequent. Many countries saw snow for the first time in decades and cool summers and early frost have killed off crops in many areas. People are discovering what they should have known; that excess cold does far more harm to plants, animals and people than excess heat.

Sorry Brett but you keep missing the boat and keep giving the empty suits who pretend that they know far more than they actually do far too much space and respect. These guys got it wrong and have refused to admit that they got it wrong. As such they deserve contempt instead of respect and any space devoted to them should make it clear that their past sins have caused scarce resources to be wasted in trying to solve problems that do not exist.

Kippy, where have you been the last few weeks, you have not posted in a while. Where ever it was, go back, your rants are getting childish and booring. BTW, I recently read an article in USA Today by Bishop Tutu. He stated Africa wants to be compensated for climate changes by the rich countries of the West that caused them. Is there any doubt left that this whole AGW "crisis" is not an attempt at wealth transfer?

Calling Dr. Kervorkian.....

For all of the GW advocates who believe that alllll the problems on this planet are human footprint generated I offer up the services of the good doctor.

Please, now its methane. CO2 wasnt enough and now its methane. To heck with that. CO is the real problem because that boys and girls will kill you for sure.

I think that these people at Goddard need to just look at the stars and leave well enough alone. If they cant, we will tank this economy and there isnt much left to tank. All in lieu of one Al Gore's company that stands to make hundreds of billions trading carbon credits and even one of the greatest advocates of GW says that this is a nothing more than a scheme to make money.
Moncton...

Sooner or later this day of reckoning will happen. Either the GW people will just go away and back to their little boxes, or they will be right and those carbon footprints will leave this earth and it will return to its state of equilibrium. None of this stuff is science, its madness and self-induced perpetuation of a single theory. No input is allowed to that theory because them guys are always right... Uh-huh.

Counter them on it and you are a looney. Counter their science which is based in a single thought that everything is human generated and nothing is cyclical and you might be found laughing as they hold their GW awareness in Syracuse in 6 feet of snow, or on the Capitol steps with Ms. Pelosi now where to be found. No show... Why? Well its the snow and the ice you see thats out there and she is a California type of Dreamin Girl. The bottom line is that way too many people jumped onto the wagon and are now trying to find a way off of it.

Here is a news flash Brett... the 60's World Series were watched in a 90 degree study hall in Memphis TN. Its 41 out there right now. But is that science? No, its a condition as of a date and time and I wouldnt base one thing on ice data and the gases trapped in it other than its a snapshot of history. Lotta snapshots out there. Like the glaciated ice thats falling into the sea at an alarming rate. Alarming to whom? Well only the people who are in for the perceived fix. The problem with the picture is that in that ice, there are visible lines of soot and ash above the little thin lines of ice. Above that ...There are FEET of ice and thats compressed too. 30 and 40 feet of it in places.

So what happened? Volcanic eruptions or some event generated 18 inches of soot/ash and then it got to be one cold mother. Cause? Not completely known but it did happen. It must have been dino's driving SUV's?

Now theres a valid science and makes about as much sense as 150 years of skewed and screwed data being used along with ice data to come up with the GW idea.. Its not a hoax until we start paying money to play in it. I wonder if Bernie Madoff is involved in this one.

Folks, I live where there was a 300 or so foot inland sea as short as 1 million years ago... That is if you believe the "science.".

Where did the water go? 5000 years ago the Greeks built temples that are under 30 feet of water now.... Must have been those goats that generated the warming?

Cap and trade is going to kill people and I mean that in the poverty it will cause around the world. Before jumping onto this wagon... Define accepted facts before sticking your carbon footprint into your mouths. Speaking of mouths, those footprints may be all you get as they cut the use of fertilizers because they generate tons of gases as they decompose into the soil.

Duh.....

"John D

I'm back from my 5 week excursion, that turned into 10 weeks, into the Arctic at the 70th parallel, Tuktoyuktuk, Paulatuk and Inuvik.

The bays and rivers are frozen over and the Inuit have been ice fishing for 2 weeks now. Paulatuk had a few days of very cold, 70 to 90 km per hour winds which generated 4 ft. snowdrifts. Snow moved in the last week of September and has stayed that way. Quite a learning experience.

The hunters were not aware of any warming or the lack of polar and grizzly bears, which they shoot regularly. There are not as many caribou as there were, years ago, but then, as one village Elder stated, they did not have snow mobiles, quad-runners, GPS and nine power rifle scopes when he was young, as everyone has now.

I recommend a trip up there, as it puts the arguments into perspective."

Thats funny because every northern indian I have ever seen interviewed says its getting warmer, among other things. Granted I am not a grandiose world-traveler such as yourself and my perspective may be skewed by the the cherry-picking of the liberal media right? I am not even saying you didn't go there, or that you are lying, but you are most definitely full of it. So you learned that snow drifts in the arctic in October? Thats absurd statement and you know it. Isn't the average July temperature in Inuvik like 55F? How is such weather at all outlandish for October at that latitude? Its Hot in Death Valley and Cold at the North Pole. Go figure.

"John D

I'm back from my 5 week excursion, that turned into 10 weeks, into the Arctic at the 70th parallel, Tuktoyuktuk, Paulatuk and Inuvik.

The bays and rivers are frozen over and the Inuit have been ice fishing for 2 weeks now. Paulatuk had a few days of very cold, 70 to 90 km per hour winds which generated 4 ft. snowdrifts. Snow moved in the last week of September and has stayed that way. Quite a learning experience.

The hunters were not aware of any warming or the lack of polar and grizzly bears, which they shoot regularly. There are not as many caribou as there were, years ago, but then, as one village Elder stated, they did not have snow mobiles, quad-runners, GPS and nine power rifle scopes when he was young, as everyone has now.

I recommend a trip up there, as it puts the arguments into perspective."

Thats funny because every northern indian I have ever seen interviewed says its getting warmer, among other things. Granted I am not a grandiose world-traveler such as yourself and my perspective may be skewed by the the cherry-picking of the liberal media right? I am not even saying you didn't go there, or that you are lying, but you are most definitely full of it. So you learned that snow drifts in the arctic in October? Thats absurd statement and you know it. Isn't the average July temperature in Inuvik like 55F? How is such weather at all outlandish for October at that latitude? Its Hot in Death Valley and Cold at the North Pole. Go figure.

Harry L:

Unfortunately, the hype about a truly monumentally stupid statement from Al Gore is hype. The American Thinker unfortunately misread 6-7 m as 67 m and Gore apparently did not claim that Greenland and Antarctica will be ice free in a decade, only that the Arctic sea ice would be: http://business.maktoob.com/20090000389134/Gore_beats_climate_change_drum_in_Dubai/Article.htm

Unfortunately, there is so much hyperbole on both sides that the real science process is lost in the noise. In this case, the fairly incendiary statement that sea ice will disappear within a decade gets lost in misquotation that creates something so stupid that not even Al Gore could utter it.

We need to be debating real issues, not what the blowhards are burbling about on both sides of the debate.

Sea Ice extent may be controversial, but is irrelevant. Ice shelves may break apart, but are of no consequence. The only thing that matters is Mass Balance; is the world's ice inventory increasing or decreasing. The answer to that question is: the MB of Antarctica, home of almost 90% of all the world's ice, is increasing. Greenland, home of 9.8% of the world's ice, also has it's MB increasing. So, if almost 99.8% of the world's two largest ice masses are increasing, how can one conclude that ocean levels are rising?

idecline:
John D.-

"What a surprise! Winter is already coming, you forgot to ask about the melting permafrost, houses falling into the sea, it is cold above the 70th parallel!"

I did not see or hear of any houses falling into the sea, but I suppose that happens anywhere that there is a coastline or delta with constantly eroding wave or current action.

We did excavate to install some power poles and at three and a half foot depth, the excavator could not even scratch the permafrost, so we used jackhammers, to reach the required 5 ft depth for the NWT Power Corporation guidelines. Apparently, the locals do the same when digging graves and stated that this is the way it has been since they can remember, only they used to use picks and axes to cut into it.

Also, the ice roads from Inuvik to Tuk and Aklavik will be starting up very soon, up the Mackenzie Delta.

Ryan,

Inuvik, being a ways down the Delta does not get the same weather effects of the Arctic Ocean like in Tuk. Of course, if your only getting your info from the telly, then I can understand your being misinformed and only getting a small piece of the full picture.

G. Karst,

It was quite an experience and in a lot of ways, much different than what you hear or read about, although, some folks like Ryan, who has never been there, will tell you that you are wrong about what you saw and did, and actually questions if you were really there. Go figure!

Also, yes I am certainly glad to be back, and will only return during the summer months to visit and hike Tuktuk Nogait National Park, which I did not see, due to work and time constraints, and to have charr again with Jona, a 66 year old Hamlet Elder who works with the government as a marine mammal observer and has been to the North Pole on a 40 day scientific excursion. Very interesting fellow, with a memory like a computer.

Kipp:

Please work on the geography. John D's trip was to Northern Canada where Sarah Palin is either not thought of at all or laughed at.

My recollections of the Tuk and Mackenzie Delata area from the early '80s when I was up there are that it is very cold and very flat. It is hundreds of miles north of the nearest moose because there is insufficient vegetation due to the cold and permafrost. However, polar bears seem to like the area.

Idecline and Ryan:

In these cold permafrost environments, albedo of the surface is very important. The easiest way to cause permafrost to melt is to put a thin layer of gravel on top of the natural peat surface. You need to put a thick layer of gravel or provide some other insulation, like closed cell extruded polystyrene to provide enough of a buffer for the temperature increase from the increased solar absorption to prevent the melting that occurs during the summer. Be cautious whenever you see photos of structures that have problems and evaluate carefully to see if they were properly engineered in the first place.

Charles S. Opalek, PE:
Sea Ice extent may be controversial, but is irrelevant. Ice shelves may break apart, but are of no consequence. The only thing that matters is Mass Balance; is the world's ice inventory increasing or decreasing. The answer to that question is: the MB of Antarctica, home of almost 90% of all the world's ice, is increasing. Greenland, home of 9.8% of the world's ice, also has it's MB increasing. So, if almost 99.8% of the world's two largest ice masses are increasing, how can one conclude that ocean levels are rising?

Posted by Charles S. Opalek, PE | November 2, 2009 7:21 PM

Or ..

The earth is getting warmer????

Brett,

Perhaps you can clear this up. Are iced-over lakes and snow at all possible (even if somewhat rare) in October at the Arctic Circle or in any of the towns specifically mentioned by John (Tuktoyuktuk, Paulatuk and Inuvik)? The latter two are right on the Arctic Ocean. I mean, thats not like the perfect storm or anything right? How common would such a weather event be? Also, does the Arctic ocean tend to be a moderating influence at that latitude? I notice it isn't completely frozen over in that area yet as of October.

Reply: I am not sure about iced-over lakes, depends how much ice you are talking, how big and deep the lake is. A thing covering is certainly possible and probably not uncommon. Snow can easily happen. Nothing unusual about that. Yes, the Arctic Ocean does have a moderating influence.

"John D.:
Ryan,

Inuvik, being a ways down the Delta does not get the same weather effects of the Arctic Ocean like in Tuk. Of course, if your only getting your info from the telly, then I can understand your being misinformed and only getting a small piece of the full picture."

"some folks like Ryan, who has never been there, will tell you that you are wrong about what you saw and did, and actually questions if you were really there."

No John I specifically said I believe you didn't I? I also asked you if that kind of weather is outlandish for this time of year. Not even the norm, just if its outlandish. I do not believe that it is.

So what is the average temperature in Inuvik for October? Its probably pretty cold huh? Did you know that upstate New York gets snowstorms in October? I don't know that the St. Lawrence ices over but you catch my drift (no pun intended). It sure is ALOT farther south then Inuvik isn't it? I see that Tuktoyuktuk and Paulatuk are right on the Arctic Ocean. Luckily we have a Canadian weather expert as our moderator!

Ryan,

I was only stating an observation of the local weather while I was up there, not a scientific analysis of the arctic climate, as though snow and cold are an unusual phenomenon, as you seem to think I said. Nowhere did I state that it was unusual, or even normal, for that matter and I don't know what has you in a frenzy over it.

I'm well aware of cold climates and freak snowstorms, as I was raised in Northern Ontario and have lived and worked periodically, north of 60 for the past 35 years.

The storms we were experiencing were nothing compared to the next few months of real winter, when it socks in, of which I have seen many times over the years.

John here is what we have got..

From my previous post

"Brett,

Perhaps you can clear this up. Are iced-over lakes and snow at all possible (even if somewhat rare) in October at the Arctic Circle or in any of the towns specifically mentioned by John (Tuktoyuktuk, Paulatuk and Inuvik)? The latter two are right on the Arctic Ocean. I mean, thats not like the perfect storm or anything right? How common would such a weather event be? Also, does the Arctic ocean tend to be a moderating influence at that latitude? I notice it isn't completely frozen over in that area yet as of October.

Reply: I am not sure about iced-over lakes, depends how much ice you are talking, how big and deep the lake is. A thing covering is certainly possible and probably not uncommon. Snow can easily happen. Nothing unusual about that. Yes, the Arctic Ocean does have a moderating influence."

I looked up the average temperature for October in Inuvik. Its highs in the low 20's and lows in the Teens. Looks like October is when the freezing temps really start to set in. Semptember has highs in the mid 40's. It looks as though the basic premis of my statement is true. This is not by any means grossly abnormal weather for Late October in Inuvik. And what I would infer from Brett's reply is the cities closer to the Ocean should have a slightly more moderate climate then farther inland Inuvik? Especially since there is still a good deal of open water in the area this year.

The Ice maps from October show spotty ice at best in the area at the October 30th maximum. Where are they fishing exactly? On the river, lakes, or the ocean? Looks like there was a little toungue of ice by the delta but mostly the area had little to no ice cover. The overall ice cover was much better last year (at least on the ocean). Was it colder last year? There was not nearly as much open water to moderate the climate like there was this year.

Anyways, I don't feel that your statement or perspective proves anything. I don't preach about drought and heat to people because I live in the desert. I do hope you had a great trip. I love going up North whenever I can (and you are correct, I have not been that far north).

As regards declining hurricane activity and global warming theory, one must consider the entire globe and therefore, all tropical cyclones, landfalling or not. While very little has happened this season in terms of landfalling USA hurricanes, consider the typhoon after typhoon in the Pacific and the Pacific "hurricanes" off W Mexico.

"John D.:
Ryan,

I was only stating an observation of the local weather while I was up there, not a scientific analysis of the arctic climate, as though snow and cold are an unusual phenomenon, as you seem to think I said. Nowhere did I state that it was unusual, or even normal, for that matter and I don't know what has you in a frenzy over it."

My "frenzy" was based on your comments, which insinuate much more than than simple weather observations.

"Quite a learning experience."

Learned that AGW isn't real?

"I recommend a trip up there, as it puts the arguments into perspective"

And how does it do that?

"The hunters were not aware of any warming"

So I guess we have a general consensus from the natives now?

"We did excavate to install some power poles and at three and a half foot depth, the excavator could not even scratch the permafrost"

This insinuates that permafrost isn't melting which is not true. For one, its no suprise that yours wasn't melting at the time since its getting cold again. Secondly, I think most of the melting is happening farther south in the more patchy areas.

You were insinuating that normal weather in the arctic is evidence that AGW is not taking place. How else are these comments supposed to be viewed? This is an AGW debate forum so try not to get too upset. I have been attacked and berated much worse then this believe me.

Again, I live in the desert. The opposite of your perspective. I feel that I have seen evidence of AGW where I live. I have talked to old timers who have told me how the climate has changed since their days. But honestly I don't bring any of that up in this forum and I most definitely do not preach about it. I would be torn apart if I did so. In any event, I don't feel that my own personal weather experiences mean much in the grand scheme of world climate.

Ryan | November 6, 2009 11:59 AM

If you had just returned from the far north, we would all like to hear your observations and impressions. We would adjust our processing of your data internally, according to your known bias.

Can't you do the same for JohnD? Try to keep your processing internal and let him inform us of his experiences. He has been doing this for a long time and we can all learn something... if you just let him talk. GK

G. Karst:

If all goes according to plan, the next project is in Nicaragua in the new year. One extreme to the next. Interesting!

"G. Karst:
Ryan | November 6, 2009 11:59 AM

If you had just returned from the far north, we would all like to hear your observations and impressions. We would adjust our processing of your data internally, according to your known bias.

Can't you do the same for JohnD? Try to keep your processing internal and let him inform us of his experiences. He has been doing this for a long time and we can all learn something... if you just let him talk. GK"

I would certainly do that if he wasn't so PREACHY about it. He should just talk about what a great time he had and stop trying to link it to Global Warming then. This is a Global Warming forum right G.Karst? If so what good does "internal processing" do? He certainly isn't keeping it internal now is he so why should I? I'm sorry I didn't realize this is an "I had a great time in Inuvik" blog!

I'm not here to learn how to jackhammer permafrost. I am here to learn about AGW and I have. You have even helped me do that on occasion and I thank you for that. I really mean it. But, it is hippocritical for you to even suggest this. You are no angel either. You spout yours just the same as everyone else. Need I remind you? If John has thick enough skin then I am sure he will stick around. I sincerely doubt my comments had any effect on you, this much I know. If John has thick enough skin he can ride this out. I should also remind you that I am not the only one who said anything.

Besides, its just a forum. I can easily be ignored if he doesn't want to play!

global warming is a conspiracy ...the government wants your money

Ryan:

"I would certainly do that if he wasn't so PREACHY about it."

If your worried that I will take the "preachy" crown away from you, then I humbly stand down to allow you to retain the title. I just don't have the time to waste, by having a meaningless battle of wits "game" with an obviously unarmed man.

Move on, my friend, as there are more important issues to joust about, than trying to make a long, tiring and drawn out issue over something as simple as this.

Ryan:

"I would certainly do that if he wasn't so PREACHY about it."

"If your worried that I will take the "preachy" crown away from you, then I humbly stand down to allow you to retain the title. I just don't have the time to waste, by having a meaningless battle of wits "game" with an obviously unarmed man."

I am not like you. You will never hear me making comments like that. If I do your ought to say something. You are the one who was talking down to us as though your incredible insight trumps everything else.