"But, any conversion of land, whether urban or forested, to agricultural use results in cooling, which is most likely due to increased evaporation."

Where on earth did they find an urban area that had been converted to agricultural use? Sounds bassackwards.

Reply: I said that. I was thinking about large parks developed within a city.

Nothing particularly new here. See the NASA Goddard Space Flight study which found that land use changes "rivaled" greenhouse gases.
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020926landcover.html
Though these findings seemed to have disappeared into that black hole that all such findings go.

No critical analysis? This sort of hypothesis, usually originating from the Pielke crowd (Kalnay is a disciple), isn't anything new, and has been floating around for more than a decade. Here is the recent study, which makes an attempt at quantifying the alleged impact:

http://climate.agry.purdue.edu/climate/dev/publications/J80.pdf

It looks like the net effect on U.S. temperature trends (warming - cooling effects) is quite small, so perhaps one or more of the authors are overstating the results (nothing new for Pielke). When incorporating this into global mean temperature trends (70% is oceans), it's perhaps negligible.

"It clearly contributes to warming..."

Clearly? Beyond such things as the urban heat island effect, accounted for and removed from the land temperature trends? Not so fast. One of many peer-reviewed rebuttals to their hypothesis...

http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/Trenberth_KalnayComment.pdf

This study sounds like a fifth-grade science project - prove that shady area are cooler than unshaded areas. ANY amount of money spent on this one was money wasted to prove an obvious point.

well here in my country (Macedonia) we got the official tree day when every person plants 3-4 trees into that unused bare soil and it affected us all , the 1st year we planted 2 million trees then 3 and a half , last year numbers were high as 6 million new trees and i don't know if it affects the temperature in this country only but these three years were the snowiest in 15 years ... if everyone do that , well have a cooler planet according to this statistics :)) just do it it takes 15 minutes of your time people

Reply: I said that. I was thinking about large parks developed within a city.

Ah, I see. You should have checked the MRLC data definitions the authors used for their study. "Urban" includes parks:

"Urban - Includes developed open spaces with a mixture of some constructed materials, but mostly vegetation in the form of lawn grasses such as large-lot single-family housing units, parks, golf courses, and vegetation planted in developed settings for recreation, erosion control, or aesthetic purposes.

http://www.mrlc.gov/changeproduct_definitions.php

Nevertheless, in figure 9 of their paper (which you apparently didn't read), the authors do claim the conversion of "urban" to "forested", "grass/shrub", "agricultural" etc. It's not just you saying that. How does "urban" become "agricultural"? Answer: It doesn't. This paper has some serious problems.

PROBABLY TIME TO CLOSE DOWN bRETT
gORE ADMITS c02 AINT TO BLAME THE SHOW IS OVER
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/gore_clears_carbon_dioxide_of_most_blame/

well here in my country (Macedonia) we got the official tree day when every person plants 3-4 trees into that unused bare soil and it affected us all , the 1st year we planted 2 million trees then 3 and a half , last year numbers were high as 6 million new trees and i don't know if it affects the temperature in this country only but these three years were the snowiest in 15 years ... if everyone do that , well have a cooler planet according to this statistics :)) just do it it takes 15 minutes of your time people.

REPLY: Ain't happening! And some of us DON'T WANT A COOLER PLANET. You guys in Macedonia can do what you want. Some of us choose not to fall for the nonsense.

Oh, by the by, you guys knew I wasn't going to let this pass. Oh, Mark, BT, P-Kerber, G-Warm, PaulM, Idecline, GSN, Hlinka, MarkB, et. al....Must have been a real rough night for you guys last night with regard to the election results in Virginia, New York's 23rd District, and especially New Jersey. LOL!!!! Let it be known that this is only the beginning. Can't wait for ELECTION DAY 2010, BABY!!! At that point, Cap and Trade, and Socialized Medicine and any of your other economy hurting, touchee-feelee authoritarian policies will offically be BUZZARD AND FISH FOOD!!!! CAN'T WAIT, BABY...NOVEMBER 2010!! MARK IT DOWN.....

MMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMM.......MMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!

Deforestration = warming.

Now tie that to what has been done in the last 60 years in the northern part of Canada with systematic total forest cuts - Boreal forest. Do the same thing with the Amazonian forest massacre.

Did you say natural cycle to explain global warming ?

Did you say it's not human caused ?

Simple reforestration would prevent such impact, but the industry is more interested in depleting the ressources for there own pocket than paying there share for a reforestration program.

The worst is seeing comments here saying we're tree lovers. Maybe more trees would spare your "so" valuable SUV.

Knuckle Dragger: "Let it be known that this is only the beginning. Can't wait for ELECTION DAY 2010, BABY!!! At that point, Cap and Trade, and Socialized Medicine and any of your other economy hurting, touchee-feelee authoritarian policies will offically be BUZZARD AND FISH FOOD!!!! CAN'T WAIT, BABY...NOVEMBER 2010!! MARK IT DOWN....."

Let's all go down the sweet memory lane of the wonderful conservative ideals during thAT economic blockbuster period of 2000-2008.

Yeah, you all remember the good ol' days of deregulation and lack of (conservative cronies within the SEC (government)) oversight of the banking industry (2008): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession, where we allowed Bernie Madoff make off with the rest of our hard earned money. Who could ever forget the good times we all had back in 2001 with the Enron collapse: http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/02/companies/enron/index.htm Who could ask for more from this important time in our lives.

Ahhhh what good memories. Those working stiffs and common folk just never had it so good. And just think you can bring all those good memories back by going out there to the Fox News hyped-up and fully supported Tea Bag rallies and voting for all the conservative tea-baggers candidates no matter if they live in your district (or not) or whether (or not) they actually care or even understand the local issues that really affect you and your family. If you take the necessary steps now to simply ignore what happened to your job, the loss of home, health care benefits, and retirement savings and this wonderful, glorious period of conservative economic trickle down can all be yours again. We will even throw in a free bus ride to one of our great Tea-Bag rallies of your choice, all we ask from you is a some small donation (not considered a tax) to one of your favorite one-sided, conservative based web sites to secure your seat.

This ad paid for by Dick Armey (FreedomWorks)

I AM GLENN BECK AND I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE.

For your entertainment and enjoyment:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_10292009_520.gif
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_11042009_520.gif

In North America, 300 years ago, a considerable area of the prime agriculture areas were covered in grass and millions of Bison grazed on the grass. As the grasslands were converted to croplands, the native Bison and people were run off, killed off and marginalized. The new paradigm has evolved to massive production of corn to feed beef-swine-poultry raised in unsanitary conditions and developing low CLA meat and dairy. Some of the results are swine-avian-human flu and increases in human cancers and heart disease. Land too arid for corn grows wheat which is highly refined into fast food or potatoes also highly refined into fast food or soybeans also highly refined into fast food oils.
All of this degrades human health and the fertilizer run off has created an expanding dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. USA society has yet to connect the dots...go figure.

Gee Hlinka, a little biased on the old history.

2000-2006 were pretty good years from an economic standpoint for GDP, stock market, and me. The last 2 years 2007-2008 when the Democrats controlled Congress and pretty much did nothing but demonize the president. During this period and before thanks to Clinton, the Democrats through the Community Reinvestment Act of 1997 were fueling the old subprime mortgage mess granting mortgages to people who couldn't afford them. Thank you Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Bush actually called for more regulation of Fannie Mae and the housing issue but Barney Frank rebuffed him. Also, see letter to Frist and Shelby (Chairman, Banking, Housing and Urgan Affairs Committee) date May 5, 2006 from a list of Republicans warning of the impending problem with GSEs. "With the fiscal challenges facing us today (deficits, entitlements, pensions and flood insurance), Congress must ask itself who would actually pay this debit if Fannie or Freddie could not?" From the letter. Democrats ignored letter and continued with their merry ways.

You do know that Bernie Madoff was a Democrat?. It also has been determined that the SEC was negligent in overseeing Madoff Ponzi scheme. How come Clinton didn't do anything about this during his term. The Ponzi scheme was alive and well back then, it had even been investigated around 1993, but nobody did anything.

And the money Madoff of with was mainly very wealthy Democrat money like movie stars and millionaires, hardly "our" money.

And Enron, its leaders were Democrats, anyway, one of the big things Enron was working on at the time was "Carbon Credits" Enron had big plans for the Carbon Credit program, I guess it must be a good plan, Enron came up with it. I am sure it will work smoothly just like Enron did.

And boy oh boy, I am sure getting some fantastic "memories" now, thanks to the ineptitude and corruption of the current administration.

Those wondering about how urban land can become agricultural may like to google 'urban prairie'.

Not the same, but a little suprising and interesting to me.

Igor-

Thank you for your comments. Ignore the "Knuckle-dragger". He would like everyone to think like him, but that aint gonna happen; especially when people from all over the World have a lot more insight into what is going on with 'Climate Change' than he does. Politics and money mean more to some than others, to not have compassion for others, and to put their agenda above others perspectives is just hubris and blatant ignorance.

I for one welcome you to comment here. The world is more connected than ever, and soon isolationist thinking will be a non-entity.

I most likely have planted more trees than any SUV hater. It is not about the trees, or the climate, these people hate private transportation and the ultimate form of convenience for families is the SUV. Room for the kids, the dog, the groceries, the new faucet to fix the broken one, the new TV or grill. Plus it can get through all the record snows the past two winters.

Oh that is right, all those things are things the AGW believers hate. Children, pets, private freedoms as in transportation, good food at reasonable prices, do it yourselfers, TV ( electronics) and grills especially ones that use charcoal. Or to sum it up in one word, Americana.

October about 10 degrees below normal!!!! Sure knocks that piddly warm September back into its place. Need to cut down all the trees to heat the house.

In repsonse to Hlinka and Idecline:

My my, my, and MMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMMM. The all-enlightend tree hugging libby crowd, who obviouly is never about politics, sure are getting nervous, aren't they???? LOL... Love it! You guys, just keep it up. Compassion for others. Yeah, through BIGGER, SPREAD THE WEALTH, IN YOUR FACE GOVERNMENT!!!!!! Spare me that Liberal Guilt Vomit, Decline. What a CROCK!!!!!! November, 2010. The FRAUD COMES TO AN END VIA THE VOTE. We will NOT be intimidated. MARK IT DOWN. MMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMMM.....

Love and Kisses from the Center of the Universe,

Knuckles. Proud Member of THE MOB. MOB RULES BABY!

Nobody wants to go down the land use path even though it is where much of the action needs to be. To manage land use, you need to be adressing it at the county or smaller level. You can't just write one big sweeping bill to dictate how land is used the way you can with carbon.

You also will be competing with agribusiness and local developers which is where much of the campaign contributions come from. That is why you see so much devlopment along the waterfront in hurricane and flood prone areas.

You also can't get Wall Street behind you, because if anything you would negatively impact land values hich would be negative for them. Instead Wall Street fervently desires a cap-and-trade bill to have an entire new market sector to game with complex derivatives. They want to "help" you fill your gas tank and heat your house in the same way they helped you get a mortgage over the past decade.

Many of the real environmental issues need to be tackled from the ground up. It is tough, but we won't solve the real problems unless that happens.

It's so nice to hear from you again Mary. I especially enjoy your special take on the political issues of the day since science is not your forte.

First off Mary, job growth under Bush was the "worst performance over a business cycle since the government started keeping track in 1945:http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/empterm.html

This weak performance data is further verified with this next link (I usually try to find at least a second reliable source to my opinions):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_George_W._Bush_administration

Of special note in that second link is the discussion on income inequality between the top 1 percent and the rest of society. Add into the mix, the extra take from the low-end consumer of higher energy costs and I fail to see how things were so good for the working class based on your implication of using GDP as some guidepost as to how the lower to middle class were fairing.

Speaking of reliable sources, what sources do you rely on regarding the political side of Bernie Madoff? If your sources are the right-wing blog sites that I am sure you frequent, I don't think anyone on either side of the debate would really consider them very reliable sources in either facts or substance.

From what I read, Bernie Madoff and his wife donated a measly $230,000 to political groups since 1991, of which $202,400 went to the Democratic Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff). How do you even know it wasn't his wife and not Bernie that did most if not all of that political donating? Maybe the right-wing bloggers need to double or triple check their source material and especially not from other right-wing blog sites.

In regards to the political side the Enron characters were on, here is a link that describes their political pay outs: http://business.nmsu.edu/~dboje/enron/frames.htm

Here is a brief cutout from that link: "Enron and its chairman, Lay, forged their deepest financial bonds with the two Bush presidents: George H.W. Bush and, more recently, his son George W. Bush. Lay was a transition adviser to Bush after the disputed presidential election in 2000. Enron and a number of its executives, including Lay, had contributed more money to Bush over his political career than anyone else, an amount exceeding $550,000. Enron played both sides, giving 45% of its soft money to Gore�s Democratic presidential campaign and 55% to the Bush campaign. 30% of Enron PAC money went to Democratic campaigns, and the balance to Republican. Enron added $620,000 from company funds and Enron gave $520,000 to the Gore campaign."

According to my second verifiable source: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0407-11.htm

The following is copied directly from that second link: "In the Nation magazine, Phillips argued that, "most of the Washington press corps has been content to leave alone the much larger story the apparent seventeen-year connection between the Bush dynasty and Enron. Even without such information, it seems clear, counting campaign contributions, consultancies, joint investments, deals, presidential library and inaugural contributions, speech fees and the like, that the Bush family and entourage collected some $8 million to $10 million from Enron over the years, which is more than changed hands in Harding's Teapot Dome scandal. Depending on some still-unclear relationships, it could be as high as $25 million."

So this makes the Enron guys democrats? In what way?

Finally here is a good way to end this political roundtable with a series of speech out takes by George Bush: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM

The response to the comment Bush says in the last clip is "YES you can get fooled again", especially when it comes to the tea-party working class and how they are again being led down the same trickle-down economic primrose path by Dick Armey, Glenn Beck, and all the special interest lobbyists.

Sorry Brett. I am closing down my political commentary now.

Mary writes:

"And Enron, its leaders were Democrats, anyway"

Not as far as I can tell...

http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Ken_Lay.php

http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Jeffrey_Skilling.php

Both parties have their issues, but revising history doesn't strengthen an argument.

Isn't it interesting that our old pal, Hlinka, who, like is pals in the Enviro-kook movement, gets his information from the Wikipedia? An information source that any nimrod can go in, and edit/revise with their own beliefs, biases, feelings, phoney facts, and own brands of revisionist history, no matter how inaccurate or incorrect they are. Keep it up, Dennis Baby. It only shows just how much credibility you lack, not only with regard to the Glo-BULL Warming FRAUD, but with any topic you profess to be an expert in. Especially Politics. LOL!

BHO.....MMMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMMM

Hey Knuckle Dragger,

Maybe you are right, I probably should avoid referring to sites like Wikipedia. I completely forgot that you too could be one of those contributors to that "...information source that any person can go in, and edit/revise with their own beliefs, biases, feelings, phoney facts, and own brands of revisionist history, no matter how inaccurate or incorrect they are."

Thanks for letting me know. I will be more careful from now on when I look up information from that site, especially since you may well be expressing your undocumented, revisionist history opinions there.

But then again, why should I worry about that, you are already doing that here on this site.

Hey Knuckle Dragger,

Maybe you are right, I probably should avoid referring to sites like Wikipedia. I completely forgot that you too could be one of those contributors to that "...information source that any person can go in, and edit/revise with their own beliefs, biases, feelings, phoney facts, and own brands of revisionist history, no matter how inaccurate or incorrect they are."

But then again, why should I worry about that, you are already doing those things right here on this site.

More environmental modeling found to be exaggerated (over estimated). GK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8344969.stm

Maybe you are right, I probably should avoid referring to sites like Wikipedia. I completely forgot that you too could be one of those contributors to that "...information source that any person can go in, and edit/revise with their own beliefs, biases, feelings, phoney facts, and own brands of revisionist history, no matter how inaccurate or incorrect they are."

REPLY: Allow me to go on record and respond to our Tree Hugging Friend that I have not made one edit on Wikipedia. Wikimapia, yes, as I am a geography buff, but not on Wikipedia.

But then again, why should I worry about that, you are already doing those things right here on this site.

REPLY: Oh, you mean THE TRUTH! Something that you an your cohorts can never handle, right Hlinka? As I mentioned before. You just keep on doing what you do. It only exposes you for what you and your leftist buddies' true intentions are. And they don't involve the Birds, The Polar Bears, the water and the trees.

BHO....MMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMM......MMMMMMMMMMM....

Love and Kisses from the center of the universe.

Knuckles. Proud member of the MOB.

One of the biggest issues related to sea level rise is flooding of coastal areas. Major river delatas have historically been major population centers with a lot of infrastructure. A recent article in Nature Geoscience looks at 33 major river deltas around the world and finds that man's activities damming upstream prevent sediments from fulfilling their historical role of filling the deltas to maintain or increase their elevations. Simultaneously, water and petroleum extraction increase the rate of compaction of the delta sediments.http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v2/n10/abs/ngeo629.html

As a result, we are both preventing natural process from increasing the land surface elevation while increasing the rate of settlement of the sediments that are already there. This means there would be increased flooding over the coming decades and centuries even if there is no sea level rise!

Once again, we are locking in infrastructure and populations into systems that have to be maintained at precise equilibriums while we take actions that disrupt the natural processes that help create the equilibrium in the first place.

Instead of focusing on carbon dioxide emissions, we need to be addressing the needs for robust and flexible infrastructure and societies to allow us to move with whatever nature throws at us.

Knuckle Dragger: "Allow me to go on record and respond to our Tree Hugging Friend that I have not made one edit on Wikipedia. Wikimapia, yes, as I am a geography buff, but not on Wikipedia."

The fact that you continue to fail to back up most of not all of your (unbiased(?)) opinions with actual scientific references or documentation here on this blog site should have given me more of a clue that you could not possibly be given a chance to edit material on Wikipedia.

In light of this new evidence given here so voluntarily by our astute colleague, I have gained a little more faith and confidence that the information presented on Wikipedia is possibly more accurate and correct then I did before your latest admission. In contrast however, I suppose I should begin to not trust and possibly even question some things I find on Wikimapia though.

Thanks for the heads up on Wikimapia Knuckle Dragger, and thanks again for making everything very clear for me and everyone else to understand my friend.

These people are now running our Department of No Energy.

Dennis Hlinka:

"Let's all go down the sweet memory lane of the wonderful conservative ideals during thAT economic blockbuster period of 2000-2008."

-- 1.69% average increase in GDP from Q1 2000 to Q4 2008. After Democrats retake congress (Q2 2007-Q4 2008, average nominal GDP increase of 0.60%). http://zimor.com/chart/Nominal_GDP

"Yeah, you all remember the good ol' days of deregulation and lack of (conservative cronies within the SEC (government)) oversight of the banking industry (2008):"

-- And we all remember the requests by the republicans to Bawney Fwank to investigate Fannie May and Freddie Mac..... and there is a good chance (opinion obviously) that we wouldnt have the current problems.

"where we allowed Bernie Madoff make off with the rest of our hard earned money."

-- And how long was Madoff running his ponzi scheme? He spent 20 years learning the business. In 1983, he kicked his business into high gear and in the 1990s started with the fraud. The Clinton administration didnt catch him in 8 years, but Bush did. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/madoff/cron/

"Who could ever forget the good times we all had back in 2001 with the Enron collapse:"

-- Very good. Bush lied, people died, right? Clinton and the democrats dont do their job enforcing the law so Bush is to blame. Funny thing is that democrats do anything to stay on the gravytrain. Bush brought Enron down in less than 7 months in office.

"And just think you can bring all those good memories back by going out there to the Fox News hyped-up and fully supported Tea Bag rallies and voting for all the conservative tea-baggers candidates no matter if they live in your district (or not) or whether (or not) they actually care or even understand the local issues that really affect you and your family."

-- Do you realize that you lose all credibilty by invoking the personal habits of Bawney Fwank.

-- Government-run healthcare and crap&tax are "local issues"?

-- Sorry we arent ACORN. We only vote in our own districts, not everyone elses.

"If you take the necessary steps now to simply ignore what happened to your job,"

-- Bush unemployment 4.2%, Obama unemployment 10.2% and rising.

"the loss of home,"

-- Clinton, Community Reinvestment Act, Frank blocking investigation.

"health care benefits,"

-- Pelosi and 213 democrats vote for a bill that will spend $350,000 per uninsured person and still leaves 25m uninsured, takes $500B away from Medicare, thus screwing seniors once again.

"and retirement savings and this wonderful, glorious period of conservative economic trickle down can all be yours again."

-- Once again, without the CRA, none of this woulda happened.

-- Speaking of trickle-down, Reaganomics worked. Thank you Stein and Laffer!

"We will even throw in a free bus ride to one of our great Tea-Bag rallies of your choice,"

-- Sorry, I dont think your "tea-bag" rallies are anything like conservative Tea Parties.

"all we ask from you is a some small donation (not considered a tax) to one of your favorite one-sided, conservative based web sites to secure your seat."

-- Thanks but we aren't ACORN or SEIU. Many of us refuse to pay union "dues". We arent Obamatons. We are individuals with similar beliefs such as liberty, individual responsibility, limited government, and limited taxes. Capitalism and individualism made this country great. We dont want socialism, environmentalism, or NeoLiberalism. We dont need nor want ACORN, SEIU, the theory of "it takes a village", or cradle to grave government interference.

"Government isnt the answer to our problems, Government IS the problem" - Reagan.

NOAA’s October data is out

I had not seen this NOAA graph before...Global warming has not appeared in the U.S., at least for the month of October????....it was warmer 1925-1965 and 1965-2009:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/get-file.php?report=national&image=timeseries02&byear=2009&bmonth=10&year=2009&month=10&ext=gif&id=110-00

I find that curious!???

Compare October long term graph to May's long term Graph.:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/2009/may/Reg110Dv00Elem02_05052009_pg.gif

Could that be land use related?

Hi AnotherMark,

I already promised Brett that I would not post any more political discussions on this thread. So, in order to abide to my earlier promise to Brett while also responding to your latest posting to me, I will simply pass along the following web link for your personal entertainment and possible enlightenment. Enjoy!

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091123/dailyshow_video

Thanks for the offer, Dennis..... but Ill pass. "The Nation" is almost as reputable as MSNBC.... and The Daily Show has no relevance to actual news.

AnotherMark: "Thanks for the offer, Dennis..... but Ill pass. "The Nation" is almost as reputable as MSNBC.... and The Daily Show has no relevance to actual news."

Right back at you in regards to Fox News and The Drudge Report.

See the problem is you (and many on your side of the political spectrum) simply take a pass on possibly listening to another counter viewpoint. You obviously have that choice in this great country, but does the choice you take to simply ignore another's opinion make you a good American? I at least make an effort to listen to the opposing viewpoints. That's why I like coming to this blog site. You would be amazed on how much you learn by taking the time to actually listen to another's opinion instead of just blocking them out.

Putting your head in the sand purposely blocking out any opposing viewpoint doesn't sound like the democracy that your side keeps advocating for. It sounds more like a dictatorship that rules over it's populace by using a one-sided news reporting (lobbyist controlled) agency that discourages opposing viewpoints from even be heard or listened to.

What's next, changing the Bible because God's word through his parables are too liberally slanted? God's word is too liberal? No wait, I heard some conservative group is already planning to change that so it's going to be OK and you won't have to ignore reading it.

Sorry Brett it just had to be said.

"The last 2 years 2007-2008 when the Democrats controlled Congress and pretty much did nothing but demonize the president."

Ahhh that must be why.

I already promised Brett that I would not post any more political discussions on this thread.

REPLY: As is evident by the progression of this thread, FAMOUS LAST WORDS, HLINKA. Like I said, keep it up. It only exposed you people for what you are all about.

BHO....MMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMM......MMMMMMMMMMM....

Love and Kisses from the center of the universe.

Knuckles. Proud member of the MOB.

Another Mark:

"Once again, without the CRA, none of this woulda happened"

I agree with very little of what you said. But I do agree with this. This means that every president since Carter has further deregulated since (including precious Reagan, Clinton, and Bush). Both parties are to blame for this mess.