There is nothing wrong with changing your opinion based on new evidence. The problem is when you go from predicting alarming cooling to alarming warming. Then it's hard to get people to take you seriously.

Wha Wha Wha, Meeeeyow Meeeyow Meeeyow. Looks like the looney tune alarmists at Stanford are running scared (trying to hide something???). Much like their buds at the DNC and in Washington. Cause no one is buying into the FRAUD anymore. Judging by last night's election results in NY-23, VA, and especially in the Bluest of the Blue, NJ, it's going to be a rough year for the party of the downtrotten, the working man, minorities, the oppressed, and the common good. Oh, it's going to be so much fun to see the White House and the Congressional Majority squirm. Almost as much as our Tree Hugging pals here on this blog. Hope you guys are braced for NOVEMBER 2010. The Election where Crap and Tax and Stalinized Medicine BUY THE FARM!! FOREVER!!!

MMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMM......MMMMMMMMM!!!!!.....

hee hee hee. Again, ain't I a stinker???...LOL...

He said it now he has to eat it. I think they should let it air.

Dr. Stephen Schneider has always taken extreme positions & that is a huge problem. Forty years ago he had weak evidence of an impending ice age & was an alarmist for that cause & lately he has been in the glo-bull warming alarmist camp. From my perspective we have seen the end of the warming cycle & as happened in the past the earth is now in a cooler cycle that will last he next couple of decades.
Brett did you ever get a chance to look at that website I sent you the link to ... I found the march of the thermometers to the beaches most interesting & I'm waiting to see what the responses are to E.M. Smiths work.
Cheers,
Rick.

Thank you for not front-paging this innuendo-filled rubbish from Ms. Fehlinger. Even Ms. Fehlinger characterized this as "juicy gossip". In true tabloid-style distortion, the clip shows illegible excerpts of the Stanford letter instead of actually quoting it. The Climate Depot piece (by the infamous Marc Morano) even more flagrantly violates basic journalistic integrity by refusing to publish the Stanford letter. Perhaps Accuweather or Ms. Fehlinger can offer a link to the actual text of the Stanford letter.

Meanwhile, the reaction of these (and our) deniers to a scientist who actually modifies his views based on the results of thirty years of research exemplifies their contempt for science.

The scientific community is correct to ignore them. It is unfortunate that media outlets who claim objectivity do not do likewise.

My opinion: Opinions change just like the climate does. Who knew?

Philistine,

Skeptics and deniers are having a much larger impact on the climate (bill) than manmade CO2 ever will. Keep it up. The tree huggers are messing with the wrong people if they think we are just going to surrender our prosperity to the hippie-crits in DC, or the UN.

"The Northeast will endure another premature blast of winter Thursday into Friday as a potent storm takes shape offshore"

http://www.accuweather.com/news-top-headline.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&date=2009-11-04_16:55

The more Katie the better. Where has she been?

"Climate Depot also has more on this story right here."

What's the National Enquirer's take?

Context is important. The filmmakers are likely to neglect to mention all the facts, and attempt to use his comments to support the "climate scientists predicted ice age" claim, not supported by a careful examination of the science at the time, or even Schneider's views.

http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/131047.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Schneider#Early_work

Regarding Stephen Schneider's past opinions about climate catastrophes...he was happy to express them on television back in the late 70s, early 80s.

Click on my name for a return to the past in many ways. Linked there is Part 3 of 3 of the "In Search of..." episode "The Coming Ice Age".

Stanford University's Stephen Schneider makes his initial appearance about the 6 minute mark.

IT'S ALL OVER!!!IT'S ALL OVER!!!! LOL HAHAHAHA LOL

Gore clears carbon dioxide of most blame

Gore explored new studies - published only last week - that show methane and black carbon or soot had a far greater impact on global warming than previously thought. Carbon dioxide – while the focus of the politics of climate change – produces around 40% of the actual warming. Gore acknowledged to Newsweek that the findings could complicate efforts to build a political consensus around the need to limit carbon emissions.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/gore_clears_carbon_dioxide_of_most_blame/

"hee hee hee. Again, ain't I a stinker???...LOL..."

Stinker? Possible, I guess, depending on your eating and bathing habits.

But a blithering moron would be a more apt description.

This is a classic example of George E.P. Box's famous quote "Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful."

We are in the middle innings of climate modeling. These are very complex models with multiple variables that still have relatively sparse experimental data to validate theoretical models. They require very complex statistical analysis of multi-variable data sets with sufficient high quality spatial and temporal data points to accurately back-test cause-and-effect trends that take decades to centuries to play out so that it can definitely be shown that that correlation actually means causation.

Unfortunately, the press and activists trumpet every new minor publication as the new Rosetta Stone that will unlock the secrets of the universe (or at least our planet). Unfortunately, the scientific method does not quite work at the blinding speed the press would like.

"Not Evil, Just Wrong" is wrong, and likely evil, too.

Excerpted from Wikipedia:
"There was a paper by S. Ichtiaque Rasool and Stephen H. Schneider, published in the journal Science in July 1971. Titled "Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols: Effects of Large Increases on Global Climate," the paper examined the possible future effects of two types of human environmental emissions:

1. greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide;
2. particulate pollution such as smog, some of which remains suspended in the atmosphere in aerosol form for years.

Greenhouse gases were regarded as likely factors that could promote global warming, while particulate pollution blocks sunlight and contributes to cooling. In their paper, Rasool and Schneider theorized that aerosols were more likely to contribute to climate change in the foreseeable future than greenhouse gases, stating that quadrupling aerosols "could decrease the mean surface temperature (of Earth) by as much as 3.5 C. If sustained over a period of several years, such a temperature decrease could be sufficient to trigger an ice age!"

followed by
"As the NAS report indicates, scientific knowledge regarding climate change [in 1975] was more uncertain than it is today. At the time that Rasool and Schneider wrote their 1971 paper, climatologists had not yet recognized the significance of greenhouse gases other than water vapor and carbon dioxide, such as methane, nitrous oxide, and chlorofluorocarbons. Early in that decade, carbon dioxide was the only widely studied human-influenced greenhouse gas. The attention drawn to atmospheric gases in the 1970s stimulated many discoveries in future decades. As the temperature pattern changed, global cooling was of waning interest by 1979."

Clearly Schneider and Stanford didn't want to go through the same misrepresentational morass that noted physical oceanographer Carl Wunsch went through when he was forcibly taken way out of context in the similarly evil and wrong "The Great Global Warming Swindle".

RICH-
"surrender our prosperity".....in italics?!!! Geez.

To align your thinking with Knuckles just shows that some people could care less about the science and only see politics and money. Not everyone thinks like you guys, some people actually want good for everyone not just themselves,. Strange isn't it...but this is a site about 'Global Warming' not about Politics. If you validate our antiquated political process by expecting it to be effective then you get pork-barrel politics, the corollary of 'backyard weather'. Change often creates strange bedfellows.
signed Wally Disney from Utopian 'Fantasyland'

Stephen Scheider-

Just another example of a big ego getting in the way of science. True scientific process is a dispassionate business, many a man (including scientists) have fallen prey to the trap of emotional cues, being 'right or wrong', and the lure of publicity. Reality is not for the faint-hearted, our conditioning hinders us from seeing what is really there. Schneider only helps people understand how hard it is to stay on course and not let human failings lead us astray.

Muse, Uprising

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR transmissions will resume,
They'll try to push drugs that keep us all dumbed down,
And hope that we will never see the truth around
(So come on)

Another promise, another scene,
Another packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed,
And all the green belts wrapped around our minds,
And endless red tape to keep the truth confined
(So come on)

They will not force us,
They will stop degrading us,
They will not control us,
We will be victorious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioG2jR-obac

Folks,
The point is not about revisionist history or whether he changed his mind. It is ALL about stifling dissent and marginalizing those that oppose their ideas.
So much for these bastioned hallowed halls of academic freedom, allowing genuine discourse of ideas, it is not going to happen.
LOL. Welcome to the world of Happy Liberal Fascism.

idecline,

"surrender our prosperity".....in italics?!!! Geez.

No, that's actually in bold, not italics. What else?

this is a site about 'Global Warming' not about Politics.

Your on a roll today. How does one deduce that legislation (politics) is not connected with globull warming? Are you that ignorant?

In case you haven't noticed, Brett posts many different topics on globull warming, which include:

Economics
Psychology
Politics
Science-fiction
Op-eds
Geology
Weather
Law

Hell, I could even make an argument for sports being connected, if you want?

All of these factors encompass globull warming. So when you say this is a site about globull warming, I say, no kidding?

some people actually want good for everyone, not just themselves

Ever hear of equal rights? Everyone who lives here (legally) has the same opportunity as everyone else. That's what makes this country so great. Spreading the wealth is a cop-out. Besides, trickle up economics is about as fundamentally stupid as upper atmospheric cold molecules heating lower level warm molecules.

If we continue traveling along the path we are currently on, we will muddle towards the type of mediocrity that will suffocate us as a nation. If we turn to the Left, we will further create an even greater Nanny State that will never be able to compete in a globalized economy where Individual Freedoms should be the clarion call for the success of all. If we turn to the Right where Freedom of the Individual, less government, less regulation with a clear blueprint and roadmap for where we want to go and how we want to get there, Canada will indeed become the great nation it should have already been.

http://www.galganov.com/galganov_platform_campaign.asp

Atleast some people get it.

So Schneider is a "go with the flow " sort of guy. I guess he has the right to do that, but I think it pretty well destroys his credibility. Anybody can warn that the Indians are going to attack when they are upon you and announce they are retreating when you see them leave.

If his support for AGW is credible, he would have predicted it back in 1975, or least said nothing on the issue. Withdrawing was the proper thing to do. I wouldn't include him in a documentary either in support of or against AGW.

"if they think we are just going to surrender our prosperity"

In case you didn't notice, GDP grew 3.5% last quarter. I guess these anti-capitalists in power couldn't finish off capitalism -- especially after Wall Street, Republicans, and investors did such a great job of almost killing it last year. Such a shame.

""The Northeast will endure another premature blast of winter Thursday into Friday as a potent storm takes shape offshore"

Your point being?

But a blithering moron would be a more apt description.

REPLY: I'd choose my words carefully, if I were you, Kerber. For someone who supports the likes and ideas of such eloquent people like Barney Frank, you don't have room to spew. But then again, the only ammo you and your ilk have is to insult. That's what happens when the Political Left runs scared and becomes desperate. Saul Alinsky would be proud.

MMMMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMMMMM!

Global Warming Predictions Invalidated

A new study in the journal Science has just shown that all of the climate modeling results of the past are erroneous. The IPCC's modeling cronies have just been told that the figures used for greenhouse gas forcings are incorrect, meaning none of the model results from prior IPCC reports can be considered valid. What has caused climate scientists' assumptions to go awry? Short lived aerosol particles in the atmosphere changing how greenhouse gases react in previously unsuspected ways. The result is another devastating blow to the climate catastrophists' computer generated apocalyptic fantasies.

In a stunning article entitled “Improved Attribution of Climate Forcing to Emissions,” a group of researchers from NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Columbia University in New York, led by Drew T. Shindell, have called into question the values used to calculate the “forcing” due to various greenhouse gases. “We calculated atmospheric composition changes, historical radiative forcing, and forcing per unit of emission due to aerosol and tropospheric ozone precursor emissions in a coupled composition-climate model,” states the paper's abstract. “We found that gas-aerosol interactions substantially alter the relative importance of the various emissions. In particular, methane emissions have a larger impact than that used in current carbon-trading schemes or in the Kyoto Protocol.”

http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/global-warming-predictions-invalidated

Stick a looooooong pitchfork in it,it's dying a very rapid death.

It's a bit ironic that global warming contrarians are Schneider's harshest critics, since Schneider in the early 70's greatly underestimated the effects CO2 and other greenhouse gases would have on climate change. Nearly 40 years later, contrarians greatly underestimate the effects CO2 and greenhouse gases have had on climate change, against all the evidence that has piled up since the earlier days of climate science (before observations began matching expectations for starters). Schneider at least figured it out within 10 years. "Skeptics" are still clueless.

The other notable influence was the Clean Air Act, strengthened a few times over the years, which eventually slowed increasing global dimming as a result of sulfate aerosols.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

If the Clean Air Act was never enacted, and (in violation of physics) increases in atmospheric CO2 and other greenhouse gases didn't have much of an effect, the 20th century (particularly the second half) would have experienced noticeable cooling. The same politically-motivated crowd would then be claiming it's not really cooling by highlighting local warm weather events and claiming the surface record is contaminated with the rural cool island effect, and coming up with scientifically dubious claims for the observed cooling. Bjorn Lomborg and others would be talking about how a cooler world beyond what modern human civilization has experienced is better. Multi-proxy reconstructions (today's "hockey sticks") would still be denied, but detractors would focus on saying the LIA period was much cooler instead of attempting to prop up the MWP as being warmer than multi-proxy evidence indicates.

GDP grew 3.5% last quarter

I already addressed this on a different thread.

Your point on another northeast winter blast being?

I'm just sounding the alarm. I'm sure you understand.

Mark | November 5, 2009 12:48 PM

"Your point being?"

Don't know what his point was, but maybe there's a point to be made that quoting a single quarter's GDP after the economy collapsed is about as useful as using two day's weather to argue about climate change.

"RICH:
Muse, Uprising

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR transmissions will resume,
They'll try to push drugs that keep us all dumbed down,
And hope that we will never see the truth around
(So come on)

Another promise, another scene,
Another packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed,
And all the green belts wrapped around our minds,
And endless red tape to keep the truth confined
(So come on)

They will not force us,
They will stop degrading us,
They will not control us,
We will be victorious"

I don't think that has anything to do with AGW Rich.. AND I don't think this song means what you think it does.

HarryL,

Perhaps you should run by your hilarious interpretation of that paper with Gavin Schmidt of the Real Climate blog. He's one of the authors.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/326/5953/716?rss=1

Deniers are so easily and willingly duped.

In case you didn't notice, GDP grew 3.5% last quarter.

REPLY: This Just In. Unemployment goes over 10%in October!!!!!.....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/unemployment-rate-tops-percent-million-people-look-jobs/?test=latestnews

I guess these anti-capitalists in power couldn't finish off capitalism...

REPLY: Yep, but the Pro-Communists in office right now are doing a BANG UP JOB of doing so.

BHO.....MMMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMMMMMM.....

Ryan,

I don't think

Maybe that's part of your problem? If you actually listened to the concerns over global warming, you would easily conclude that paranoia is in bloom.

Looking at issues confronting us, it appears that focusing on our carbon footprint is the top priority. Climate change is the greatest threat to humanity, according to those who have green belts wrapped around their minds.

Some of us fight so that they will not control how warm we keep our homes.

So I disagree that this song is not relevant. To me, it is. But I suppose that's why artistry is subject to interpretation.

Now bugger off.

"This Just In. Unemployment goes over 10%in October!!!!!....."

Unemployment is a lagging indicator. I'm more interested in the news that productivity surged last quarter, and that corporate profits have gone up. People who know economics (which doesn't appear to be most right-wingers) understand that productivity goes up first, followed by employment, and then wages. (of course, with trickle-down economics, wages for most of the population barely kept pace with inflation, but that's another post.)

What's more telling is how right-wingers have been hoping -- almost praying - that the economy fails. They've been rooting against this country since Obama was elected. This further supports my long-standing notion that it's the right-wing who are the true "America-haters." They love their ideology more than their country.

RICH-

Who's paranoid?????
Are you talking to me????
Or are you hearing echoes????? What was THAT?

"In case you didn't notice, GDP grew 3.5% last quarter. I guess these anti-capitalists in power couldn't finish off capitalism..."

Reply: Lets keep in mind what happened in the last quarter.... Government Motors and Chrysler got billions of taxpayer dollars and when Obamaworld gives a $4,000 credit to get people to buy new cars..... where 8 of the top 10 models bought were foreign nameplates. We also need to keep in mind that not only does Obamaland own GM and Chrysler, they also own banks, insurance companies and govt spending all play into GDP. With over $1T spent so far by Obama and much more on the way, many of the numbers coming from the fed will be overinflated. Currently the advertised unemployment number is 10.2%. The actual number that isnt talked about is the 17+% which is the total of newly unemployed PLUS those that have been on the dole so long they have arent tracked any more.

What does this have to do with global warming? WE are giving the government $Trillions already and Nancy and Co want to take even more money out of the economy with the new crap and tax bill. The science is not there to justify another screwing of the economy. If the healthcare bill goes thru, the economy will begin a downward spiral..... crap and tax will be the deathnel.

I'm more interested in the news that productivity surged last quarter, and that corporate profits have gone up.

REPLY: Yeah, right. Because you are such a friend to corporations. No, Mark. You and your ilk are more interested in being an apologist for that fraud that is in the White House. Who I might add, promised that Unemployment would not go higher than 8% under his watch. But that's OK. We now have a President with a brain, right Mark? So Eloquent. Such flair and gravitas. (When's the next Golf or Basketball outing???) Tell it to the people who are OUT OF WORK!!!! (So, just how is that "HOPE" and "CHANGE" thing working for ya????)

What's more telling is how right-wingers have been hoping -- almost praying - that the economy fails. They've been rooting against this country since Obama was elected.

REPLY: Once again, more BS from the moonbat left. No, Mark Baby. We have been rooting for Obama's intentional marxist un-American policies to fail. Ya know. The ones you and your buddies on here embrace with such glee? And yes, here's hoping they continue to fail miserbly. So we can begin the voter revolution, which I might add, began last week. Only the beginning, Mark. Only the beginning for the soon to be worst President in the history of this country. You guys had better come up with a new strategy. Cause the end is near for your big heros in the party of the Downtrotten, etc. Once again. You LOSE!!!!

Remember. Unless you have a melting glacier in your neighborhood, it's all back yard weather.

Love and Kisses from the center of the universe,

Knuckles. Proud member of the MOB!!!!

BHO....MMMMMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMM!!!!

Rich,

"So I disagree that this song is not relevant. To me, it is. But I suppose that's why artistry is subject to interpretation."

Aren't you the feisty one!

I said is that the song does not mean what you think it does. If you quote something with callous disregard for its intended meaning, then you are no better then a media sound bite.

Now you bugger off and go back to the playpenn where you belong. Or you can stick around and get a pounding... And lets keep it on the subject.

Ryan,

"I said is that the song does not mean what you think it does. If you quote something with callous disregard for its intended meaning, then you are no better then a media sound bite."

It appears that Ryan is easily distracted. Was it the flashing lights from his TV? If he but only looked at his opening statement, perhaps he would realize his error?

--------------
"I don't think that has anything to do with AGW."

Which is exactly why I responded:

"I disagree that this song is not relevant."
--------------

Instead of being a hypocrite, why doesn't Ryan take his own advice and stop wasting Brett's time?

Mr. Anderson,

In the spirit of fairness, why would you allow Patrick Kerber to label Knuckle Dragger as a "blithering moron", yet edit out my labeling of Ryan as a ...........hypocrite?

Is the word .......... that bad? I'm trying to gauge some form of standard from which I may express my opinion.

Re

Reply: I do not recall the patrick kerber comment. If that was indeed what he said I would have deleted it. When was that comment made?

"RICH:
Ryan,

"I said is that the song does not mean what you think it does. If you quote something with callous disregard for its intended meaning, then you are no better then a media sound bite."

It appears that Ryan is easily distracted. Was it the flashing lights from his TV? If he but only looked at his opening statement, perhaps he would realize his error?

--------------
"I don't think that has anything to do with AGW."

Which is exactly why I responded:

"I disagree that this song is not relevant."
--------------

Instead of being a hypocrite, why doesn't Ryan take his own advice and stop wasting Brett's time?"

Wow! You can insist that your POETRY citation is relevant as much as you want, but that doesn't turn the sun into the moon. This is as convoluted a response as any I have seen. Not only aren't you making sense, you are not addressing anything. Now again, lets keep it on the subject buckaroo. Very little of what you write is ever relevant to the subject matter thus far.

Brett,

"When was that comment (blithering moron) made?"

On this thread, November 4th 6:46 PM.

In the spirit of fairness, why would you allow Patrick Kerber to label Knuckle Dragger as a "blithering moron", yet edit out my labeling of Ryan as a ...........hypocrite?

Is the word .......... that bad? I'm trying to gauge some form of standard from which I may express my opinion.

Re

Reply: I do not recall the patrick kerber comment. If that was indeed what he said I would have deleted it. When was that comment made?

REPLY FROM Knuckles:

Let it go, guys. If you would read through the thread, I fired back. By not insulting the poster, but insulting the poster's beliefs and ideology. That that puts them in a fit of rage moreso than firing any personal insults back at them. Translation: I don't lower myself to their level. I can handle myself when conversing with the ignoramuses on the Politcal Left. Not a problem.

Remember. Unless you have a melting glacier in your neighborhood, it's all back yard weather.

Love and Kisses from the center of the universe,

Knuckles. Proud member of the MOB!!!!

BHO....MMMMMMMMMMM....MMMMMMMMMMM.....MMMMMMMM!!!!

As a thought experiment... What do you all think would happen, if I was to teleport all the regulars here, into my guesthouse, for a week.

We have more in common, then most would like to admit. We all have science and technical backgrounds and enjoy challenging conversation. We don't share the same P.O.V., but who does? Everyone brings some expertise to the table.

A few nights under the stars, listening to Idecline expound on the nature of time, space, and infinity would do us all some good. John D would fascinate us with tales from the far north. Rich and HarryL would link the heavens with the condition and fate of Man. Regg would regale us with stories of impending doom. Knuckles and Kipp would serve as great bouncers, in case Gore or Beck tried to crash our little party. As the campfire burns MarkB would sing us a song "off key". Ryan could be kept busy fetching firewood and beers until his excess energy burned off. Bob Tisdale could perform a jig, which would mimic the dance of our ocean currents. Brett would keep us appraised of impending weather.

I suspect after a week, we would all become lifelong friends. Try to keep this in mind as we rip each other's liver out. GK

Knuckles:

"Let it go, guys. If you would read through the thread, I fired back. By not insulting the poster, but insulting the poster's beliefs and ideology. That that puts them in a fit of rage moreso than firing any personal insults back at them. Translation: I don't lower myself to their level. I can handle myself when conversing with the ignoramuses on the Politcal Left. Not a problem."

I agree if I were to get upset, that would do it more then anything.

Knuckles,

I know that you can handle yourself, and I don't have a problem with allowing Kerber to express his opinion. I was merely looking for a level platform.

GK,

I appreciate the love, but it's probably best that I do not attend your meeting. Being certifiable, things could get a little crazy.

Ryan,

You know what's amazing? Being patronized by progressives on how the free markets can adapt to over-regulation. If a product or service sucks, or is too expensive, people will either; stop buying it, use less, or open the door for competition. Free markets are naturally designed to adapt to changing climates.

Let us not flounder, it's the over-regulation which removes the freedom from the market. Cap and trade will do nothing to help our economy. It's not rocket science. Apparently neither is the theory of a CO2 induced warming catastrophy.

"A few nights under the stars, listening to Idecline expound on the nature of time, space, and infinity would do us all some good. John D would fascinate us with tales from the far north. Rich and HarryL would link the heavens with the condition and fate of Man. Regg would regale us with stories of impending doom. Knuckles and Kipp would serve as great bouncers, in case Gore or Beck tried to crash our little party. As the campfire burns MarkB would sing us a song "off key". Ryan could be kept busy fetching firewood and beers until his excess energy burned off. Bob Tisdale could perform a jig, which would mimic the dance of our ocean currents. Brett would keep us appraised of impending weather."

I must admit this was very funny :) I think you got me down pretty good with that one. Either that or I would poke the fire too much. And what would you be doing? Just curious you must have something in mind for yourself...

Rich:

"Cap and trade will do nothing to help our economy."

I do not believe in Cap and Trade. I already stated that.

Oh and lets not leave out Gary. He is a regular poster too.

"I do not believe in Cap and Trade."

That's great. My apologies Ryan -- thought I read somewhere that you were in favor of this system.

I believe that a strong nation is built on the foundations of a free market system. This will be the best possible solution for maintaining and rebuilding American prosperity, without the need for over-regulation.

"I do not believe in Cap and Trade."

That's great. My apologies Ryan -- thought I read somewhere that you were in favor of this system.

"I believe that a strong nation is built on the foundations of a free market system. This will be the best possible solution for maintaining and rebuilding American prosperity, without the need for over-regulation."

reply: As a singular issue, I think that Cap and Trade is entirely too convoluted to be effective. Its unfair to those that have high emissions as a natural result of their day to day business. I don't think enough provisions have been made, or can be made, to develop a comprehensive plan that addresses the needs of all companies in a fair and effective way.

As a result, I would say that if you want to regulate something, just regulate it and do it one company at a time. Come up with a plan on an individual basis that is fair to them and will not make them unable to compete with the world at large.

This Cap and Trade nonsense is just beating around the bush. Its a trojan horse both for the republicans because it is regulation under the guise of market principles, and for democrats because it gives the impression that we are doing something when we really aren't.

I am not taking a stand on this issue either way (not saying we should or shouldn't regulate), and in many ways I am coming at it from a completely different place then you are. But, in the end I think we can agree on this (albeit for different reasons).

Its the same for Ethanol, again a trojan horse. The land cleared to create ethanol will emit enough carbon to offset any CO2 savings for 400 years. Whether or not you endorse AGW, if you want to reduce CO2 thats stupid right? It will EMIT more CO2! We can't use existing food sources because people need to EAT so more land will be cleared! Its not very well thought out at all.

Again, it makes us feel like we are doing something when we really aren't. If we are going to do that we may as well just keep using gasoline. We will run out of it before we reach the levels we will emit with ethanol!

There are alot of misguided fallacies floating around out there.

Ryan:

Gary gets to carry the taser (secretly with-out batteries), in case anyone get's too certifiable. I will be too busy at the barbecue to do much else, other than issuing the batteries to Gary, when needed. Brookline Tom and Dennis Hlinka will bring lots of peer reviewed paper to use as fire starter (it works the best).

So you see; everyone has something to contribute. Sorry if I left anyone out. You are all important to this blog. GK